I am Fuming

#1 by Tom Photiou , Sat Oct 03, 2015 8:45 pm

I will keep this thread going but at present to annoyed to tell my tale, suffice to say watch this carefully, all iwill say at present is that after almost 40 years of collecting films and using Eumigs and Elmo's i will never stray from this again!!!!!
I will update you with why and what's happened very soon. One thing i annoyed about is being told that Super 8 2nd tracks have very low &/or poor sound due to the quality of this track.
My Elmo's all belt out superb sound, From BOTH tracks.
watch for my updates, (depending on my outcome).



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RE: I am Fuming

#2 by Vidar Olavesen , Sat Oct 03, 2015 8:58 pm

Now you got me curious at least :-)


 
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RE: I am Fuming

#3 by Hugh Thompson Scott ( deleted ) , Sat Oct 03, 2015 9:09 pm

He's got us all curious, I understand the balance track is slightly less as good as the main stripe, Maybe a problem with head alignment,
however all will be revealed no doubt.



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RE: I am Fuming

#4 by Tom Photiou , Sat Oct 03, 2015 10:52 pm

I agree that the balance track is somewhat less than the main but on my elmo,s and other twin track projectors switching from 1 & 2 the actual volume is at least the same. However my full story will be revealed Monday or Tuesday. I just need to await an email mail or two. The only clue I will give is simply this, I won't be venturing into any new projectors ever again unless it's an elmo or a eumig. I have made a big mistake and so far a costly one.



 
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RE: I am Fuming

#5 by Andrew Woodcock , Sat Oct 03, 2015 11:20 pm

No doubt Tom is still dissatisfied with the outcome from his Bauer.
If it's less than perfect, so he should be!

He has spent a lot of money investing in this wonderful projector. He deserves for it to be A1.

Hope I'm wrong, but instinct says I'm not.

Hope things get sorted for you soon.

Keep the faith, when they work as they should, they are stunning machines!

Just ask any collector who's been around the block!

As we always say, one man's pill is another man's poison solely based on any one experience of ownership with any one individual machine versus another.

Personally, for me ,I'd never swap a decent Bauer T610 for any other machine....period. But of course it's all about any individuals
"What counts factors" as we've already spoken of countless times.

For me, in the home,first two rules of projection......
1/ thou shall not scratch film
2/ thou shall not be heard above and beyond the soundtrack.
3/ thou shall run film with sound to 70's/ 80's Hi Fi standards with the consistency of playback speed of a bespoke reel to reel tape recorder to use similarly when recording.

Oh sorry, was that 3? Oh well they are all of equal importance to me assuming a decent picture which can be had by many, including these,it has to be said.

Hope you get sorted out soon Tom, to your ultimate satisfaction, given time,it's more than possible you may go 180 on your initial perceptions.



 
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RE: I am Fuming

#6 by Hugh Thompson Scott ( deleted ) , Sat Oct 03, 2015 11:44 pm

Thou Shalt write it up on the Forum before any Magazine put before thee. So it Shall be written, So it might be done.
From the Book of Scotticus.



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RE: I am Fuming

#7 by Andrew Woodcock , Sat Oct 03, 2015 11:46 pm

Thou shall obey!


 
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RE: I am Fuming

#8 by Robert Crewdson ( deleted ) , Sat Oct 03, 2015 11:54 pm

For me the No1 importance is that I can trust it to handle my films with care.



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RE: I am Fuming

#9 by Steve Carter ( deleted ) , Sat Oct 03, 2015 11:55 pm

'So it is written so it shall be done', said Pharaoh in his best 'Eastern European' accent.


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RE: I am Fuming

#10 by Andrew Woodcock , Sun Oct 04, 2015 12:00 am

And on that front Robert.... I can resoundingly and reassuringly say it does, ... way over and beyond any other machine i've ever laid my hands on. Not by a small margin might I add...... by a country mile!!!!

Note rule number1!...

everyones what count factors are different, for me at £300 a film min these days, I simply HAVE to use Bauer & Beaulieu!!
I have no choice if I even stand a chance of keeping these one off's nowadays exactly as I receive them!!

If anyone can ever tell me differently, I'm all ears!!



 
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RE: I am Fuming

#11 by Andrew Woodcock , Sun Oct 04, 2015 12:30 am

I guess i will be waiting a very long time.


 
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RE: I am Fuming

#12 by Hugh Thompson Scott ( deleted ) , Sun Oct 04, 2015 12:49 am

Andrew, you have hit the nail on the head, film care is paramount, a projector that doesn't look after film, is to be avoided.
Bauer, I have never used, folk speak highly of them, but folk speak highly of the GS, and every other post on other forums
is people having problems with them. Everyone has their own "pet" machine, mine are the Mark "S" Eumigs and Fumeo, because
I know that when I put a film through them, it comes out the same condition it went in. If Tom, as I suspect, has done some rerecording
and it has gone wrong on the balance stripe, it could mean that the heads might want to be re aligned, I understand that not all
projectors read tracks exactly the same. Didn't Derek Simmonds have to alter the heads on his recording machines to accommodate the
new stripe. Maybe that could be Tom's problem, anyway, I'm speculating, Tom will let us know in due course. When I was doing the "thou shalt" bit, it was for Tom to put something here first.



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RE: I am Fuming

#13 by Tom Photiou , Sun Oct 04, 2015 10:42 am

OK! I wont keep anyone in suspenders any more
Andrew is more or less spot on.
You all know i was very pleased when my "new toy" turned up, i put several photos up on the the other photo, It was to look at in great shape, and it also looked very sleek and stylish.
I bought it as i wanted a true stereo machine as opposed to a twin track playback although i have never really been too bothered by it, i sold a lot of bit and bobs and paid for the Bauer T610 out of my sells via payback.

Before i proceed a word about rule number one, yes it is paramount. No one wants a £200-£500 new print have a line put through it. However, out of over 380 films we have i know my 1200HD has put a thin black line to the far right on only 4 of these titles, unforgivable? My projectors are over 35 years old, however, i have since replaced all the green guides and given it a clean out to end all clean outs, i no longer get this problem. ST1200HD,s over 380 films, 4 second hand films marked (that already had some light marks anyway,) not a bad record i think.

Back to my purchase of well over £400, no stereo sound track working, Andrew, you saw the video, so it went back via the warranty, it was explained that the pin at the base of the track two switch was broken and that the whole print,(board) was going to be replaced. There is also a bubble or something within the Schneider 1:1 lens, not much of a problem unless you watch a film like the Warriors which is all set at night and in the centre right of the screen you get bubble of very faint orange, very weird, they did say they could see this. The lens was one of the selling points as i was told it came only with 1:2 lens, after not making the purchase they e-mailed to say they found 1:1 lens and i could take this instead of the 1:1 for the same price. 598 euros.

I got it back Friday & i was told it is completely fine again and tested but, & i quote, "The track 2 sound isn't very loud and that is due to the way the sound head is created and that stereo super 8 tracks aren't of an high enough quality to make the change in sound all that great". That to me is red rag to a bull, i am fully aware of how good or bad soundtracks are and should be, Derann and others would never have got away selling films as stereo if this was case. The track 2 plays on all my Elmo's as good as track 1 with only a slight difference and with a hell of a volume and no hiss or hum.
Anyway, i put a film on and F*** me if there was no sound on track two again and the same lens is still fitted! Track 1 is good, with a bit more hum than before, track 2, the switch is now not making the horrible noise it was making and slide it all the way to 10 and all i got was hum. If i put my ear to the built in speaker you can just about make something out. Now tell me why a Bauer is top?
To me, either the heads are knackered, (and after spending over 400£ i aint paying for that) or something else just isn't being done. I will say it was not done in the postage as the packaging was 100% perfect in every way. This is a stereo machine not fit for purpose, no point in twin track if it doesn't play the 2nd track.
Have i gone off it? After ovr 30 years of Eumigs and Elmo's yes i have, on the up side it is the quietest machine EVER. that's due to plenty of plastic parts being used, which means faster wear out.
I love the look of it but i rather look at the films i show, and in my case it is the quietest machine around. TOO QUITE.
I was considering the Beaulie 708 which looks really sllek but i am also aware of people who have had there films chewed during threading so i wont be going there.
I will stay with Elmo, they are proven and will, i am sure, outlast others for years to come.
End of Rant and Bauer for me. I just want my dosh back now, i even bought the spare electrical kit and bulb plug for it. jeeeezz.



 
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RE: I am Fuming

#14 by Hugh Thompson Scott ( deleted ) , Sun Oct 04, 2015 10:53 am

Tom, you have all the right in the world to be annoyed, pack it up and return it, get a refund, this machine sounds like
a heap of trouble, I speak from bitter experience with my first GS1200, I had to have one, one thing after another, just
a nightmare. The seller is obviously trying it on, get your money refunded pronto.



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RE: I am Fuming

#15 by Robert Crewdson ( deleted ) , Sun Oct 04, 2015 11:02 am

Andrew, I only have the one Super 8 machine, that is a Eumig mark S; might seem old fashioned now compared to what you have; and a 600ft limit wouldn't suit a lot of people now, but as Hugh says, the film comes out at the other end in the same condition it went in. They were top machines in their day, and it does everything I need. It's just up to me to make sure I keep the film path clean from dirt and debris.

Tom, regarding your Bauer, you need to get your money back; if you have difficulty you should contact the Trading Standards; you can try Googling Long Distance selling regulations. You are actually entitled to a refund on your postage, but that may not be so easy. Getting back what you paid for the machine is a priority.



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RE: I am Fuming

#16 by Robert Crewdson ( deleted ) , Sun Oct 04, 2015 11:07 am

I have mentioned this before Andrew in other forums, but can you remember when Derek Simmonds wrote to Movie Maker to say anyone owning a Chinon projector wouldn't be able to hire any of his films in future. He was losing money. He said that he could sell a B&W feature for £45; he hired it out once and it was coming back with torn perforations after being used on a Chinon.

When I moved over to 16mm I didn't know a good projector from a bad one, but chose Bell & Howell as they were such a well known make, I have to say that I am as pleased with my B&H as I am with my Eumig.



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RE: I am Fuming

#17 by Steve Carter ( deleted ) , Sun Oct 04, 2015 11:21 am

Yes Robert I've had my Bell & Howell DCT since around 1979 or so, except for one micro switch, and the lens problem it has been a good work horse, if any-one can pick one of these up second hand, go for it, stereo playback through two monitor outs, separate volume control for each track, tone control, no hum even at high volume, powerful built in amp, 800 ft reel capacity, 150 watt lamp. It was top of the range in it's day, and is a Sankyo under the hood.


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RE: I am Fuming

#18 by Hugh Thompson Scott ( deleted ) , Sun Oct 04, 2015 11:28 am

Everything made under the sun has a rogue", as Arthur Daley termed them "Friday Cars", made in haste. In Tom's case, he's paid good money for a well respected machine and been sent a duff one, even the lens was off, replaced, no, just an empty promise. There are
Consumer laws to protect the buyer, ebay will protect the buyer, PayPal and your credit cards all have protection for you. So DON'T
be tempted to try and rectify anything Tom, just get it back as soon as possible and demand your money back.



Hugh Thompson Scott

RE: I am Fuming

#19 by Andrew Woodcock , Sun Oct 04, 2015 12:30 pm

Yep, if Tom is unhappy, and in this case he has every right to be, then of course as he has purchased from a dealer with a warranty, he should be eligible to a full refund if dissatisfied in any way.

It's a shame as they are a lovely machine but as said already, everyone has a different set of "what counts factors" in what they are looking for in a machine.

It does sound to me that with the existing head in position (because you get two chances by having two identical main heads) that even when Tom's machine is working, there is wear to the balance side of the head.

This is not uncommon on these heads but they are very hard wearing compared to many others which includes the Eumig as has been well documented.

I always like the fact that, though very expensive, these magnetic heads are still available to buy new from Wittners. They are also the very same heads
That Beaulieu used in their Stereo machine so of course at the price they were new, they wouldn't be cheap.

I can only imagine that as the track 2 comes and goes since the projectors return, then there must be a dry joint issue within the main board.
Ordinarily the fault would point to the rocker switch which can be troublesome after many many thousands of depressions, but as Edwin has clearly cleaned all of the contact points on this switch, apart from where it actually is soldered to the board, then it must be elsewhere in the pre amp circuit where the fault lies.

I have a second machine myself that has an almost identical fault except track 2 is perfect but in Stereo mode, track 1 is silent. It's something I will be looking to resolve once all my household decorating jobs are finally completed.

Onto the Beaulieu projectors....
People often get hold of one of these for the very first time and quite frankly don't even know how to operate one correctly!
The first mistake often carried out with these is people turn the main knob to position one to thread them just in the same way you do for any other projector.
On these this is entirely the wrong thing to do. You do not touch the main knob to thread them.
They have a microswitch underneath the top threading shoe. You simply depress the threading shoe and the film transports in thread through the machine while ever the button is depressed.

Secondly I have seen these attempting to be threaded by trying to place the film underneath the first roller as you would with any other machine.
On these unusually the film rests on top of the first roller.

Finally you HAVE to dovetail your leaders with these not try and thread using a bevalled edge leader as you would any other machine.
The projector comes with an in built tapered cutter within the base of the frame close to the amplifier controls. These cut the film perfectly for use with these machines and Bauer machines.

Thread these as per the instruction manual and they have to be one of THE most reliable threading mechanisms of any projector.
I can honestly say, hand on heart, I've never crumpled a single frame on any of my films using a Beaulieu projector.

Hope it all goes well for you Tom regarding the return of the projector to Van Eck. Let us know how you get on and best of luck pal.



 
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RE: I am Fuming

#20 by Tom Photiou , Sun Oct 04, 2015 12:49 pm

The projector aside, i do think the company will be OK. I will say they kept me informed at all times on progress, very friendly, also they did pay for the machine to go over and back again. I wonder if they forgot to swop lenses?
The fact that your saying the sound on yours on Track 2 is good Andrew puts to bed the statement they made that the quality of track two is poor in comparison. I'm not really sure why they would say that, especially to a collector of over 30 years experience with different machines.
I think i got the Friday afternoon one as Hugh said, it is a pity as i was as proud as punch when i got it. In over 30 years its the most expensive thing i have invested into my hobby, my first "treat myself" after selling a lot of bits n pieces.
now i finished ranting, I certainly would NOT say they are crap machines, on the contrary, it is a very nice machine, beautifully quite, its just put me off. You know Hugh how you felt about your GS.
If they were to be able to get it 100% working i would be happy but how many times do you sent it back and forth & i do not want to part with more money, i'd rather invest in brand new release feature.
I was very surprised that upon its return the hum on track 1 was double to that sending it over.
If it Hummed as it did Friday it would have gone back the first day i bought it. It was a throw back to the early Eumig days.



 
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RE: I am Fuming

#21 by Andrew Woodcock , Sun Oct 04, 2015 1:03 pm

Nothing in projector land is black & White Tom except for our films that is!

The heads on these have a very narrow contact point on these heads. The 938/40 and Elmo GS are very different, their balance side of the heads is much wider (relatively speaking).

For brilliant sounding Stereo on these you really have to match two conditions,
1/ The stripe has to be bang on to begin with, no weave, perfect alignment and preferably pre striped and not pasted which always varies in thickness even at its very best!

2/ Because the stripe is so narrow and because the balance side of the mag head is equally one of the narrowest around, the best sound is obtained from recordings made on the actual machine itself.
Because Beaulieu use the very same heads, the two partner really well to produce equal alignment for the sound quality on track 2.

If say a balance stripe has been recorded just as a back up to the main stripe on say..a sankyo stereo projector or even deranns recording equipment, there is a good chance that track 2 can sound dull in comparison to track 1

When the heads are like new, it's difficult for the sound to be bad on track 2 no matter who and what machine recorded the track.
As things wear, results become more varied until the balance side of the head is either worn out completely or the head requires lapping professionally.

The hum situation BTW you're describing should not be audiable with the sound track playing unless it is amplified to a very large extent externally.
They all hum in standby mode with the volume control raised.
This is simply the microphone effect you get from all this type of equipment with nothing playing and the volume level raised.
Just like a cassette deck used to do the same if you pressed the play button with no cassette fitted.

The sound track should not be spoiled by the hum ordinarily.



 
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RE: I am Fuming

#22 by Robert Crewdson ( deleted ) , Sun Oct 04, 2015 1:30 pm

That sounds like a great machine you have there; I wish the Eumigs had been made with a bigger capacity, but at that time 400ft reels was the norm.



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RE: I am Fuming

#23 by Steve Carter ( deleted ) , Sun Oct 04, 2015 1:33 pm

Andrew my Teac cassette deck has no hum, and my 4 track Yamaha studio cassette deck most certainly has no hum, it is a quality recorder. I don't know why they fob you off with the balance stripe is too narrow, when you think of a cassette tape, I'm using 4 tracks on the studio recorder, that's got to be just as narrow per track as balance stripe, and even after bouncing tracks to free up others, it's still of good quality, or it was when I could hear properly. So I just don't buy the narrow stripe argument, maybe poor tape quality could become an issue, but when you think of 24 fps, it should be like reel to reel on a slower speed, and at very least like a very good quality cassette deck. Just my thoughts.



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RE: I am Fuming

#24 by Paul Browning , Sun Oct 04, 2015 1:38 pm

For a projector costing that kind of money pounds or euro's, why hasn't this been fully checked over before tom bought it ?, how long would it have taken to find these
faults before shipping, not long I think. I still believe the Elmo is the better machine, even with all its faults.


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RE: I am Fuming

#25 by Tom Photiou , Sun Oct 04, 2015 1:42 pm

True Steve, if a Bauer T610 at that high end price range is that fussy about the balance stripe its not really fir for purpose as a stereo playback/record projector.
Any stereo film should play on any true stereo projector. If the balance stripe has to be 100% perfectly straight or is slightly narrow because one make of projectors head is fussy and narrow then there is something not right there.
My old ST1200HD will show any of our stereo films (all be it in mono) perfectly every time.
When i switch the rear track selector switch from track one/+/track 2 ,(which i do with new films i buy to ensure they dont have a faulty tack), the volume on both tracks is booming and the quality,(whilst always slightly different) is always excellent.
This must prove my point on the Bauer as not one of the stereo films i have will reproduce through the track 2. Surly all the stereo films we own cant have inferior stripe?



 
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my test results.track 1/2
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