RE: I am Fuming

#26 by Steve Carter ( deleted ) , Sun Oct 04, 2015 1:50 pm

Yes Paul I agree, but how many times in the past have I sent things in for repair, and it comes back just the same, I think the 'techs' go through basic running and as long as it's 'Running' they don't pick up on the fault, or the little things you bought the machine for, that makes it special and stand out. I remeber when VHS first came out I had a machine that after it was running a while the sound level would drop, they would not have it, I was younger and hot headed in those day's and nearly came to blows in the shop through pure frustration, why should I work all the hours God sends, to pay for a machine that isn't fit for purpose?. The sales guy was all over me when I was buying, it was a different story when it went wrong, he acted like he had never met me before, and called me Sir, when before it was first names. In the end I got on to the manufacturer they had it in and it was unrepairable I got a new machine, why couldn't the shop had done this instead of 6 months of fob offs.



Steve Carter
Last edited Sun Oct 04, 2015 1:52 pm | Top

RE: I am Fuming

#27 by Andrew Woodcock , Sun Oct 04, 2015 1:56 pm

I think the point is being lost here by the looks of things.
On all machines the stripe on the main always has a higher frequency response because it's twice the width.

Also you cannot compare a duo tracked machine with a solo amplifier with the performance from a projector that keeps the two tracks entirely separated from stripe to speaker output.
Anything else is a amalgamation of both tracks, it has to be, it only has one amplifier.



 
Andrew Woodcock
Posts: 6.080
Points: 13.820
Date registered 08.19.2015
ThankYou 640

Last edited 10.04.2015 | Top

RE: I am Fuming

#28 by Andrew Woodcock , Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:01 pm

On the subject of repair standards regarding our 30plus year old machines
No repairman now will ever guarantee you that every function can be got working again on this aging equipment.

I myself have these conversations with Kevin Brown and Bill Parsons to name just two. They will do their level best but by their own admission some issues are just economically viable to repair in some circumstances.


 
Andrew Woodcock
Posts: 6.080
Points: 13.820
Date registered 08.19.2015
ThankYou 640


RE: I am Fuming

#29 by Steve Carter ( deleted ) , Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:09 pm

Andrew I still don't buy that the main stripe would have higher frequency response than the balance, it's not the width of the tape so much, as it's the speed the tape passes the head, that gives good frequency response, my studio cassette runs at twice the speed and more than a bog standard cassette deck, there by giving me good frequency response and less hiss. So at 24 fps you should get good sound, you know you do as you re-record some of your sound tracks.



Steve Carter
Last edited Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:11 pm | Top

RE: I am Fuming

#30 by Andrew Woodcock , Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:12 pm

Also Tom if you are saying that the Bauer and Beaulieu mag heads are not fit for purpose as a stereo machine, then there is even an argument to say that the medium itself is unsuitable for stereo reproduction.

The balance stripe as we we all know was never intended to be recorded upon when first brought about. It was simply to balance the thickness of the film from one side to the other.

Pre striped laminated stock was so very good and accurate even the tiny 0.4mm width proved adequate to gain a reasonable soundtrack from.
On pasted stripe both the thickness and width varies wildly in tolerance when talking in terms of a 0.4mm width.

How many films do we all own where the balance stripe can at times even encroach in the frame and therefore is visible as a wavy line on the RHS of the image?


 
Andrew Woodcock
Posts: 6.080
Points: 13.820
Date registered 08.19.2015
ThankYou 640


RE: I am Fuming

#31 by Andrew Woodcock , Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:14 pm

Steve its a proven fact that it does pal. Just do a little research into any technical write ups and all specifications differ from main to balance as quoted on any review or manufacturing specifications.



 
Andrew Woodcock
Posts: 6.080
Points: 13.820
Date registered 08.19.2015
ThankYou 640

Last edited 10.04.2015 | Top

RE: I am Fuming

#32 by Steve Carter ( deleted ) , Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:20 pm

I never believe a word of technical write ups, you get a good machine you get a bad un' and everything inbetween. I don't know how they measure wow and flutter, I used to measure it with what I heard, not what some data sheet told me, I mean do you believe everything you read in the papers?, it's like Fenders and Gibsons everyone to there own what suits one don't suit another and visa versa.


Steve Carter

RE: I am Fuming

#33 by Andrew Woodcock , Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:23 pm

All the manufacturers who have to test these things scientifically all quote the balance stripe capabilities as being considerably less in overall performance than that of the double width main....even when everything was brand new and laminated stripe was the norm.



 
Andrew Woodcock
Posts: 6.080
Points: 13.820
Date registered 08.19.2015
ThankYou 640

Last edited 10.04.2015 | Top

RE: I am Fuming

#34 by Steve Carter ( deleted ) , Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:28 pm

I don't want to got round in circles, but don't you think the blurb is just to cover themselves, if you don't expect too much, then you won't expect too much, then if you do, you will be pleasantly surprised, THE END......fade out...


Steve Carter

RE: I am Fuming

#35 by Hugh Thompson Scott ( deleted ) , Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:30 pm

The obvious test, and I'm sure Tom has done this, is to try known films that replay on all other projectors okay, if that isn't the case
and the problem still is there ,then obviously there is a problem. You could go down the road I did, and keep goodwill and let the seller
have the chance to repair it, or just cut your losses and obtain another elsewhere. In my case, I should have just returned it and got one
somewhere else, as it turned out the problem persisted, then other problems arose, which is why after my experiences with Elmo, I
term them "Jap crap", they have cost me dearly in spoiled prints and carrier fees plus endless repair bills, nothing would ever change my views on ELMO Tom, they are the only sound projectors I've ever owned that have damaged film. I can understand your frustration, it is
annoying, especially if you have sold some films etc to offset costs and that is maddening, the choice is yours though, and I would give it
careful consideration, don't act in haste, do your test films, you might try recording a fresh track, if this replays okay, it might just be misalignment of the head. Anyway I hope things work out for you.



Hugh Thompson Scott

RE: I am Fuming

#36 by Tom Photiou , Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:37 pm

This is one of the reasons why im fuming, it couldn't have been tested with a film not just the first time upon payment but now the second time, and the lens is the same!

Hugh, yep this is the first thing i did, apart from that i already knew my films were fins as we had some of them for years. Once i tried the Bauer out Friday PM i immediately set the Elmo1200HD up and guess what, the films played perfectly on both tracks.



 
Tom Photiou
Posts: 1.721
Points: 2.735
Date registered 08.14.2015
ThankYou 128

Last edited 10.04.2015 | Top

RE: I am Fuming

#37 by Hugh Thompson Scott ( deleted ) , Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:50 pm

Hi Tom, did you do a test recording on your balance track? If it replays back okay on the Bauer, but not on your other machines, then
I would think that the balance head needs re aligning, fingers crossed that is what the problem is. The lens can be sorted without
returning the complete machine.



Hugh Thompson Scott

RE: I am Fuming

#38 by Tom Photiou , Sun Oct 04, 2015 3:01 pm

Possibly Hugh, but dont you think they would have done this simple test?
I hear what your saying about the balance stripe Andy, all i'm thinking is it does make those Bauer Stereos very fussy machines. You say you have the same problem but with track 1 on your other 610? So it sounds like an issue once these T610s start to show a little wear maybe?
I do hate these plastic sliding switches though, they are cheap and nasty and always eventually build up dust underneath causing noise when you slide them, i was told on mine the fault was that the switch pin was broken at the bottom, its one of the reasons why we got shot of our Eumig S940. These multiprocessors are too complicated for there own good it think.
They should have done two version of the S940 and also Bauer T610, playback only, recording versions could have been special orders, i bought my projectors to show films.



 
Tom Photiou
Posts: 1.721
Points: 2.735
Date registered 08.14.2015
ThankYou 128


RE: I am Fuming

#39 by Hugh Thompson Scott ( deleted ) , Sun Oct 04, 2015 3:04 pm

A lesson I've learned over the years Tom, is don't credit anyone with common sense, a misnomer is ever there was. They might
have tried it, and it was okay.......on that machine, but not on another.



Hugh Thompson Scott

RE: I am Fuming

#40 by Steve Carter ( deleted ) , Sun Oct 04, 2015 3:07 pm

And they always come back with, 'It was OK when we ran our film on it, in the work-shop, may-be your films are faulty', then it's your word against theirs.


Steve Carter

RE: I am Fuming

#41 by Paul Browning , Sun Oct 04, 2015 3:15 pm

Did the original advert say "new sound heads fitted" if not, they are the original sound heads set up at the factory when new, unless someone has tried to adjust them at sometime
during its life, perhaps the pressure on the balance track is not good enough, maybe a weak spring possibly. I think any misalignment would give you a muffled sound and
not a low sound, this sounds like a circuit board fault, either way the films tom is putting through are play perfectly ok on the elmo's and any other machine he owns, so sound
must be good on the stripe side. As this is a stereo machine it should at least be able to perform this function, if not then its "not as advertised".


Paul Browning  
Paul Browning
Posts: 779
Points: 1.257
Date registered 09.13.2015
ThankYou 112


RE: I am Fuming

#42 by Tom Photiou , Sun Oct 04, 2015 3:33 pm

No, i enquired as to weather they had one for sale and they said one was in the warehouse but had not yet been checked through, a week later it went on sale. When i enquired on the lens they said it was a 1:2 so i left it. A few days later they "found" a Schneider 1:1 lens and if i wanted the machine they would supply that lens instead of the 1:2 at no extra cost.
To my knowledge no new heads are fitted.
I did ask if they would replace the frame fixture as i knew these to be a problem and also the claw cam as these are also a problem on these but they said, the machine will be tested and serviced as necessary. If they deemed it OK they wouldnt replace for the sake of it. I guess that's when i should have put the brakes on.



 
Tom Photiou
Posts: 1.721
Points: 2.735
Date registered 08.14.2015
ThankYou 128

Last edited 10.04.2015 | Top

RE: I am Fuming

#43 by Paul Browning , Sun Oct 04, 2015 3:51 pm

Hi tom, just wondered how the stereo balance is obtained on this machine ?, is this on a slider control or rotary type control ?. I ask because I had a similar problem
with a mic line input on mixer that was low on one channel, when you turned the control to the left or right it would be fine one side but low to nothing on the other. After it
went in for repair and come back exactly the same problem, I had an idea it was the stereo slider at fault, so I replaced this, and that fixed it. These old machine use carbon
tracks to on the sliders and on a rotary switch, you get flat spots on both or they just fail in a used spot, like the centre position of the slider, ie the balance of the left and right
track. If you have a mono switch does this bring the sound back even on the balance track.


Paul Browning  
Paul Browning
Posts: 779
Points: 1.257
Date registered 09.13.2015
ThankYou 112


RE: I am Fuming

#44 by Andrew Woodcock , Sun Oct 04, 2015 3:59 pm

Woooow ...hold on a mo Tom , just came back in and I'm hearing all sorts regarding this. Let me digest what's being said here and I will comment on each point I've read. On first glance some seem a little bizarre I have to say.

Ok first point is surrounding Hughs earlier comment.
Tom cannot intercompare any of the soundtracks between this and any other machine he has from what I understand as this is his only true stereo machine with two independent and very separate individual amplifiers so no side by side comparison can be made.

Next point...

For what it's worth, I completely agree with Hugh surrounding his views on the Elmo machines in particular his final point regarding these.

Next....

I sincerely doubt it anything whatsoever to do with misalignment of the heads. A quick glance at the factory paint marks will no doubt endorse what I'm saying here. Tom's machine when it does decide to work is showing the classic signs of the known issue when they wear.
I've owned 3 machines now since I've been back in the hobby that all use these heads. It is almost certainly balance side wear to the head if the sound is patchy or dull or both

The first obvious things to do here before jumping to any conclusions would be to make a test recording from an. Excellent source at 0db peak and see how it sounds on playback.
Then if still dull or patchy on balance side, swap the heads over and test again. This of course is assuming the intermittent fault on the board itself ever allows Tom to carry out this experiment.


Next.....

Again, for what it's worth, my opinion of the slider controls based on the years I've used these is they are excellent. They don't allow any real dust ingress as they have soft felt like liners that cover the linear potentiometer s just fine. They are used hundreds of thousands of times in their lifetime so of course, eventually, just the same as rotary knobs with a carbon track inside , the carbon will wear and crackling becomes apparent before replacement becomes necessary but just as with any Bosch product, only top quality components were used from original build.

The rocker selection switches can be problematic as the machine ages but again they will have been depressed tens of not hundreds of thousands of times before you ordinarily will experience an issue here.
Dry joints is a very very common problem on all aging circuit boards as is a breakdown of the dielectric layer of capacitors as they age.

Next.....

Are they "fussy" machines? No not any more than any other stereo machine and a lot less so than some but of course this depends entirely on the condition of everything including the heads.
It is not fair to compare what you experiencing at the moment with say the results from a 30year old GS. Why?
Well because the GS has as most of Elmo projectors have, one very strong point indeed. Their magnetic heads.

They are made from sendust alloy and is THE most hard wearing alloy of any of the magnetic heads used on projectors.
By contrast the Eumig S938 and 940 models have the softest and as a result, they wear the fastest of any machine.

Next....

Edwin correctly advised Tom in my opinion, that if the frame alignment knob was perfect then you would not routinely fit Edwins excellent repair kit for these. Why?
Well you'd have to break the original knob pin to fit one!
Why would you do you this?
These don't break routinely by any means but CAN break after many years of use, hence the repair kit.
There is every chance in hands of a careful user this repair kit would never be needed.

Onto the cam and follower change out parts... again, the originals are the best and the quietest. Why would you replace these parts before it becomes absolutely necessary to do so?
It is a major job and requires many hours of set up time to perfect the shaft end float, therefore claw penetration, claw centreing and finally claw framing adjustments.
Only when absolutely necessary do you ever want to be doing this work on these and if kept well lubricated with Dow Corning special silicone grease who knows when that maybe?

Next.....

Message to Paul, the stereo selection on these is made only by one of the five rocker "piano" style keys on the LHS of the sound section of the control board. They are simply a switch and do not contain any carbon track on these.



 
Andrew Woodcock
Posts: 6.080
Points: 13.820
Date registered 08.19.2015
ThankYou 640

Last edited 10.04.2015 | Top

RE: I am Fuming

#45 by Tom Photiou , Sun Oct 04, 2015 4:07 pm

Okies,
Basically, it went out to them with the said fault, it has come back still with no sound on track 2. It you switch off T1 and put your ear to the built in speaker you can just about make out the-slightest sound through the built in speaker only when you slide the switch to volume 10, full on. T1seems fine although there is more hum than there was when i sent it back.
None of my films are faulty or have poor balance stripe, they play fine on my 1200HD and also they have played fine for years on my Brothers 1200HD. Thats how i know the films are fine.
I tested the Bauer PM Friday, then immediately put the film on the Elmo and Bingo, the sound on Track 2,(switching off T1) is fine.
Hopefully that the main gist of it.



 
Tom Photiou
Posts: 1.721
Points: 2.735
Date registered 08.14.2015
ThankYou 128


RE: I am Fuming

#46 by Paul Browning , Sun Oct 04, 2015 4:24 pm

ITs a good job you have a reliable Elmo to test these prints on Tom, as sadly the Bauer isn't capable on doing what it says on the tin. ELMO, ELMO, ELMO.


Paul Browning  
Paul Browning
Posts: 779
Points: 1.257
Date registered 09.13.2015
ThankYou 112


RE: I am Fuming

#47 by Steve Carter ( deleted ) , Sun Oct 04, 2015 4:32 pm

I always say if it's playing up and I've only just got it, it's always going to have problems, get your money back Tom, and stick with what you know. I had a TV it was only about a week old and it had a really bad panel problem, they wanted to have it in to repair it, I said no I'll have a new one thanks, because if It's playing up now it will be worse once you've had the back off, and have you seen how they handle your property.



Steve Carter
Last edited Sun Oct 04, 2015 4:32 pm | Top

RE: I am Fuming

#48 by Tom Photiou , Sun Oct 04, 2015 4:35 pm


Elmo is a proven and reliable machine, also they are built solidly & made to last. With ours having had the shutter mods, (no more rubber), all lathed down to a nice flat edge and my own new 24fps clutch wheel, and we still have two plus new 24 and 18FPS rubber wheels they will go on forever. As long as they are serviced and cleaned they will be fine. It is a shame the the GS suffered with the scratching but this can be over come with a new green guide or a modified old one. I always fancied a GS but they are a little over engineered and too much to go wrong. The ST1200HD is a great work horse, mine is used almost every evening even if only for a 200 footer.
I do love how quite the Bauer is, and its design is very sleek but no good to me if i cant get it working after over £400 spent.



 
Tom Photiou
Posts: 1.721
Points: 2.735
Date registered 08.14.2015
ThankYou 128

Last edited 10.04.2015 | Top

RE: I am Fuming

#49 by Paul Browning , Sun Oct 04, 2015 5:00 pm

It's always horse's for course's tom, but Hugh and Andrew have a valid point about some points of the Elmo's, but your not experiencing this with your machines and neither
am i, if only the capacity was more. My dream machine would have to be a fumeo 9119 with the sound replay and record of the GS1200, that would be an awesome machine,
a bit clonky but very well designed for kindness to film, just the sound lets it down, even in the mono version, and that where the high end Elmo kills the rest stone dead.


Paul Browning  
Paul Browning
Posts: 779
Points: 1.257
Date registered 09.13.2015
ThankYou 112


RE: I am Fuming

#50 by Hugh Thompson Scott ( deleted ) , Sun Oct 04, 2015 5:01 pm

Unfortunately Tom, it is more than the one guide that causes scratches with the GS1200, as with the STs, all need either removing or
rollers added, this is work that SHOULD have been done on replacement parts from Elmo, they didn't, they issued "tougher" parts
that were just as bad, they fumbled the ball, I spent many hours remodelling and fitting rollers, the basic premise of the ST, is simple
and sound recording a dream, other than that, unless one is prepared to either subcontract modernisations out, be prepared for
a lot of work, you can clean as much as you like, when one of those guides starts to wear, it can be after the gate as well that damage occurs
you won't know until the next screening. Remember Laksmi Breathwaite from the 8mm forum, he swore down his Elmo was not marking
his films, until he tried to sell a feature on ebay with lovely blue lines etc, the buyer was not impressed. He even damaged his pride & Joy, "Forbidden Planet", scratches don't appear as deep gouges, even on the dirtiest projector.



Hugh Thompson Scott

   

my test results.track 1/2
the haunting 1963

disconnected Reel-Chat Members online 2
Xobor Create your own Forum with Xobor