I noticed these past couple of days there were some 16mm Disney feature prints up for sale at what appeared at first, very reasonable prices or so i thought.

So the first few that I looked at which included Lady & the Tramp, were all faded to almost total Red.
Ok i thought, no wonder it's cheap!

Then I noticed some marvelous screenshots taken from a Pinocchio Feature on 16mm. Still only at what first appeared like. what seems, reasonable bucks!
Looked a little deeper and low and behold it appears it's a IB Tech print!!
Next I read, basically the entire thing is held together with a million splices or an entire roll of sellotape and some of it is missing!!

Really?....Really really???
I could not believe what I was reading!!

This seems to happen every time I look at a 16mm print, that if it were on super 8mm, I would be interested in.
Crikey what are these guys doing to these films prey tell?
Sounds like they are using a cheese grater to view them on?
I am baffled I really am.

most likely a bandsaw print

Meaning they used a bandsaw to watch them on Clyde??
Really, I have no idea luckily, having never collected a 16mm film in my life?

Jeez, I really could not be doing with the disappointment, i really couldn't.

I understand that people deem S8 overpriced but at least generally you have an idea of what the expense is obtaining for you in expectation terms.

Each time I see a 16mm quality title that i think looks every bit as good as what I'd expect it to, they want around 6000 US Dollars for it!!!

It really is a hobby I could neither house or afford, I have to say!

Makes me wonder even more of all of the obstacles that may face a 35mm collector.

Oh, the horror

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TN_8ZBiYUJ8

Aye, and not only that, Andrew, but on most of the prints I have the sound is nothing to write home about either.
I always thought that the optical sound on 16mm prints was superior to the magnetic stripe sound on super 8. Mostly based on memories of the stuff that was available in the early 70's super 8 wise, with the muffled sound and the ever-present hum in the background. The 16mm prints we saw at school always seemed to sound clear and strong.
But now I have 16mm I'm beginning to think I was wrong. A case of time and fond memories distorting reality?

So either I must have something wrong with my hearing, or there is something wrong with my 16mm projectors, or 16mm optical sound sucks.
Unfortunately, I don't live near anyone who has 16mm, so with nothing to use as a reference I can't tell which of the three it is.

One other thing I note is that lately there have been lots of prints for sale on ebay advertised as "Good" even though the the vendor hasn't the means to screen the print to check it. Their claim is based solely on the external appearance of the box, reel and first few inches of film. Even where films have been run and checked there is often little or no reference to the sound quality in the description.

To me, sound is as important as the picture. I have no intentions of parting with money, however little the sum, for a print that has not been at least run and checked by the vendor.

Massive reels taking up half my house. projector half a mile away from the screen in order to get an image bigger than a postage stamp ( yes I know I need to buy a zoom lens) , rasping or muffled sound that gets very spiky if the treble is turned up or becomes unintelligible and muffled if the bass is turned up, and folks advertising for sale prints that smell of vinegar, with long slits down the side instead of sprocket holes and are held together by tape. I ask you.

I think maybe I'm cracking up. I hope I haven't offended anyone. Is everyone else happy with the sound they get from 16mm prints?

Just seen the video clip you posted the link to, Vidar. It's sacrilege. Very upsetting. :(

Nothing more than I have been saying on my favoured gauge for years Ian!

The only sound I truly enjoy are the ones I put there myself! All other is simply a compromise at best!

Ok seen the bandsaw now. Still don't understand how anyone could see fit to try to sell such an item>????

Did you notice that in his/ her description of the film for sale the vendor said he/she had bought it from a shop with bits missing and hundreds of splices and tape repairs in the first reel? Was it made clear to the purchaser that print was extensively damaged and had a myriad of splices and repairs I wonder, or did the old 'caveat emptor' come in to play here? 'cos I can't for the life of me imagine why anyone would even consider buying a film in such a poor condition. ( unless it was the last copy in the world.) I like to watch my films, not chuck them under a bed never to see the light of day again because they are too horrendously damaged to be screened.

Andrew,I was wondering when someone was going to say about theses Disney prints.I thought it was just me watching the prices go up and up for what in my eyes is rubbish.This is of course my opinion only but I don't want a print with VS or " bandsaw " at that price,do the buyers know what they are getting.I do have two BS prints both acquired very cheap and the damage is minimal so playing is not that bad.Many years ago if memory serves me there were a lot of subtitled Norweign/ Swedish prints available that had been band sawed I had a a copy of Rocky,some were watchable but a lot were damaged beyond the repairs attempted.
Back to these eBay prints I personally think as I have said before people are loosing the plot over what is on offer,maybe they have nothing better to do than mend splices all day.Perhaps they watch the films with the sound turned down ,and if it's VS with a cloths peg on there nose.(any budding cartoonists on this site)
Must be an awfull smell under the bed Ian,still maybe they wrap the films in clingfilm to preserve them for future viewings.Perhaps it's the new way to collect film:: must be band saw,have VS no leaders,warped,rusting metal reels and cans,and not viewed as don't have a projector in that format,but been collecting another format for years.No seriously folks only joking must be an age thing!!📽📽📽

Oh forgot to say not wishing to get into sound but my copies of Oklahoma/ South Pacific/ King and I all IB tech the sound is booming on them clear as a bell so I guess you gets what you pay for as the say. 📽 📽

Just watched Vidar's youtube link, that is criminal, what a waste :-(

Watched the video last night...so painful to watch.
I wouldn't have the patience or desire to put something like that back together. What a nightmare that would be!

Patience yes, desire for the end result?
Most definitely...NO!

Surely unwatchable, splices every couple of seconds, these films could have been sold on to collectors worldwide.

With films it's all about the quality and condition ALL of the time to my view.

No point whatsoever in having tens of thousands of prints like these to my way of thinking.

I just got another little Derann short recently. It again carried those same old trademark scratches that get me vilified on these places for pointing these facts out!

Otherwise a stunning and beautiful print but as it stands a useless addition to my collection.

More on this another time, when I'm away from work for a while longer.
But a real disappointment with this one again here.
Luckily it was only a short and wasn't a fortune, but still.... a downer all the same!!

No mention of the curved central green trademark scratch btw upon purchase!

Maybe they hope for a sucker but my days of accepting rubbish are long gone sadly for them!

Watching the video made me sad.

What a waste of time, effort, and money

Should be a heavy penalty ... Worst horror movie ever?

Thanks for that bit about the sound on your prints, Gwyn. Its very good to hear that you have sound that is as clear as a bell. It re-assures me that the search for good 16mm sound is not futile. South Pacific , The King and I, Oklahoma - prints with IB technicolor and clear sound - the stuff dreams are made on , you lucky person!

I'm not sure its all down to 'you get what you pay for', though. The two most expensive prints I own have got fabulous colour and are virtually mint. They most certainly weren't cheap by any measure and they came from very reputable sources. But the sound isn't exactly terrific. And of course,as you have mentioned already, on E-bay the price you pay for a print ultimately is no indicator of its condition. Many collectors are prepared to put rarity over quality, it would seem, with the final bid price being determined purely by a print's scarcity.

I have only been 'back' in the collecting game for a few months and I find it is a minefield. When buying prints we take so much on trust since opportunities to 'try before you buy' are very thin on the ground. Gradually I am learning who I can trust and who needs to be avoided.

But there is such much I don't know about the hobby. I had no idea that band saw prints existed until I read the posts in this topic. I can scarcely believe that folks would take the time to splice together all the individual pieces to recreate the whole. That people would band saw films in the first place makes me feel ill. But as you say, how on earth could you bear to watch such a film with the sound turned on and with the noise of splices running through the gate every two seconds?

One final thought before I get banned or something - I can't help but chuckle to myself when I read what one e-bay vendor says about the prints he/she is trying to off-load ; "Although I don't have the means to view the films myself they came from the private collection of a semi-professional collector who screened the films in public many times, so they are probably going to be ok."

It's only my opinion , but the fact that they have seen extensive use puts me off completely.

I was fortunate Ian to be in the right place at the right time as they say to get the musicals,a person who I did not know who lived fairly near me sold his entire collection privately and I was one of the lucky ones.
The other side is ,I like a lot have the use of the silver disc,now I'm not going to start this subject as I too will get banned,but until the price is right on a decent 16mm print there is the alternative and I am happy to wait.My set up lets me play anything and I'm sure I'm not alone in this.
As for eBay you get to know who's who.📽📽

I have a stunning colour print of showboat for sale

The only time I had a problem with sound was early on in collecting - got a beatiful print of Candleshoe, but sound was terribly muffled. Came to discover it wasn't anything wrong with the print, my roller wasn't fitting tight against the sound drum. Once the machine started to shred film (an auto threader), I moved on to manual thread machines hooked into a mixer and two powered speakers. Sound is great, even outside!

I only have one bandsaw print, bought it out of curiosity - to be honest, I'd always thought they were a myth. Doesn't run too badly, but need to attend to lower loop in the first 30 minutes.

Hello again by the way, sorry I've been kind of absent lately - work has been crazy busy. But as they say here in the country, when the sun is shining is the time to make hay! I did get away a few weeks ago to attend CineSea 9 hours away in New Jersey, was wonderful to get to hang out with like-minded folk, forget about work for a couple of days, and immerse myself in film!

You're very lucky Michael to have only ever witnessed one print with apparent poor sound quality. Clearly you must have avoided all late Derann prints like the plague!😀😀😀

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Hi guys im new here.I was the seller of the sellotaped disney print of lady and the tramp.I am also selling the two terminator super 8 films currently on ebay.These were all purchased by me from CHC about 6 or more years ago.I payed 200 plus for each of these and only watched them about a few weeks ago for the first time.I have a habit of buying films and then just adding them to my collection without viewing them.CHC had these all for sale as very good condition.The damage these all have has been there since i got them.If I had watched them after my purchase I would have returned them as having hundreds of sellotaped splices and scratches is not what I would call good condition.I offer them up on ebay and give a true description of the condition.I like to think I give full clarity for what im selling rather than saying they are very good with no screenshots or very little to no info.Buyers can then decide on what they are willing to pay.Cheers Tim

Welcome here, Tim. Nice to see you here. I had bids in on both (not gonna get them for my max price, sadly)

indeed Tim they can.

I find it incredible though that any collector would ever pay hundreds of pounds for a film, then never get around to watching them until years later?
I am truly baffled and perplexed I really am?

It tends to take me less than six hours within the same day to verify any print that enters my living room and only slightly longer if I have been in work that same day.

You owe it to yourself Tim to check these things on arrival as many collectors and dealers at times, can be somewhat economical shall we say,with information regarding a prints condition.

When I put screenshots up on here to do a full review, I tend to leave no section of the film unaired, this way people can see the exact condition prints can be kept in if well looked after.

There is no way I'd have accepted these prints coming from Phil in this condition of which you've paid good money for them Tim.
I purchase fairly regular from Phil and anything below par, he gladly accepts me returning it.
He knows I won't take rubbish from him, so he generally looks through the print again for me before the sale even goes ahead.

Many is the time I have requested one feature, but then he recommends another ahead of it all because of condition being slightly below what he knows I'm comfortable with.

I'd still have a chat with him regarding all of this Tim.
In my experiences, Phil is not a totally unreasonable man and may offer you some discount on future purchases despite the duration of time lapse in between you receiving the film and then finally getting around to viewing for the very first time.

I purchased GIGI from Phil only very recently. Yes it was a film I dearly wanted to add to my classic musicals collection, but even more importantly to me, was because it was described as being in " as new " condition with all leads and tails in tact and in original packaging.
For all intents and purposes, it was, I am very pleased to say!😊😊

A very simple and straightforward transaction.