So many people still believe, (or at least try to get others to believe) you need to produce a negative to make a film, it has been said that-
"doing film these days is expensive especially doing a negative and takes many sales to break even".
It use to take Derann to sell around 10 15/20 copies of films before a profit was made so nothing new there.
Perhaps someone's doing it wrong? When copying digital to film, using the right process, (as is done with 16mm) you really do, do away with the process of making a negative.
I refer to you to one of my earlier posts here,

New insert for Waterloo in scope
Eight minutes of 16mm in scope with sound, half the price of a new super 8 200 footer and not a negative in site, and I mean half the price. if it can be done on 16 it can be done on 8 and it is being done on 8.

CHC sold a few trailers recently using the negative free process, picture perfect image and the usual A1 modern digital sound, mono or stereo, flat or scope.
So trailers for a start price of £150 on a 200 footer with BIN of 224? Carry on then.

In the new year I'll do my own, no not a release for sale, just one for myself, when it's done, i'll, I'll be back. No negative required
Wheres the source? I dont know and I dont care.

Tom, I checked out your other post -- I didn't know that service was available for 16mm. Now that's a good use of digital to film -- replacement footage, I'd never thought of that. Now I wouldn't do it for the case where half the feaure is missing, but for what you did it for, it is perfect.

Thomas,

I have used this service myself for a new print of a live action short. I was quite pleased by the print, although quality does depend on the resolution of the digital source material. In my case it was from a "youtube" video of rather low resolution. There are a surprising number of collectors that have had entire features made!

I don't have a digital projector, so I suppose that a film print from a digital source may look better than viewing it on my TV screen. I really don't know. Like I said, replacement footage is something I would consider depending upon the price -- though I don't need any replacement footage right now.

For what I collect, I'm always able to find on film -- B&W classics. Now perhaps a Super 8 or 16mm print of the nearly-complete BATTLE OF THE CENTURY with Laurel and Hardy would pique my interest, since it was released on Blu-ray a few years ago on the "Definitive Restorations" disc. All I have on film is the edited pie-fight in Super 8 - a version that included the the boxing match was released on Super 8 and 16mm by Blackhawk, but it has always taken bigger bucks than I was willing to spend the rare times it has come up for sale. And that version has the edited pie-fight, too. The un-edited pie fight was finally discovered in 16mm about 6 or 7 years ago by Jon Mirsalis.

Just before anyone is offended here, I am not saying all the releases to present day have not had negatives made in their process, I know Andec in particular do have negatives struck up, what I am saying is that it is no longer necessary have them made, this way the price can cut the price by a half to two thirds.

No prints taken from a digital source will look as good as real film and lab manufacturing from the past, however, they do all look very good, its just a different look but when projected looks pretty good, some better than others.

Reading on another channel it does make the point of how many prints have to be sold before any profit which I fully get, but I have to ask the obvious question here, the big ad for xmas number 4, nice to see another new release, but this Volume 4 release is limited to an ultra exclusive run of just 20 film prints. Surely this then limits any chance of breaking into profit??

Moving on, as of yet, I have not seen for myself any of the non negative releases so I cant and wont make a comparison, does anyone else want to preferably with screenshots?
I will update further into the new year when I have my own done. The main attraction is going to be the price and of course, everything (as has always been the case) will be dependant on the quality of the source material, there's nothing like stating the obvious. As Greg said, you can use youtube files but these will vary so much it would need to be at least full HD or preferably, 4K.
The newer negative free process can be done just as well if the source is decent, again, I use another example of one from a disc, which three images from my fish called Wanda are from the disc and on this, no negative was made.

A Fish Called Wanda 3 x 1600ft spools Agfa

Having followed a thread elsewhere I think a lot of people still dont seem to understand the purpose of what this service is for. It isn't for making new releases or producing full features from discs, It is restoring 16mm prints to their full glory, or close to it, you could call it a rescue service, I can see no point what so ever of wanting to copy a full length film from disc to film. The cost would high and the quality will still never match a good LPP polyester film made the traditional way. Several of my 16s have had a few minutes redone here and there and the film gets it's life back again, keeping the old films going.

All i will say tom, is that some of the replacement footage you have had done, waterloo for example, is exceptional, i can't tell the difference, so with that in mind, i will use this service, if i can find out who it is to replace some footage on a print of Dracula prince of darkness " which has some odd issue in a couple of scenes, this will make it a complete feature again. Some good info there tom .......

Tom,

Do you know what titles CHC had done using the Negative free process?

Also do you know if having a Negative made leads to quicker printing? For example if you want to get 20 prints done I'm guessing it is a lot quicker to run off that rather than print each one individually? Or is it the same?

Your 16mm extracts you had printed, how long did they take?

As for Xmas trailers #4 only having 20 prints, that is most likely down to the fact there are not enough buyers today to buy more particularly at the price. If they could be produced a lot cheaper (say £40) then you could go for 50+ and sell them all. I'm afraid those days are gone and you are just dealing with a few committed buyers so just printing 20 is safer.

Graham S

I also had some replacement footage made to replace TV Edited or badly damaged sections. Luckily they were short so I also had a couple of deleted scenes from the Blues Brothers done to make my 16mm print a unique one off as these were only ever included in the BR disc releases, they were never in any theatrical prints.

Last of the Blues Brothers extras

Graham, I'm not 100% sure of the titles, I only know they went very quickly, I missed out on them.

I'm guessing if you have a negative, printing can be done much more quickly, however, as said, what I have done is a few minutes here and there in order to replace missing/damaged or abridge scenes, not for re selling, or as a business, it can take several months simply because I'm not the only one waiting.

The nature of copying to sell is something I wont get into, producing to sell doesn't appeal to me at all but am grateful for those who do. I do have a couple of the new releases namely Jurassic park and the first two xmas trailers so I have supported some of them but, unfortunately, todays prices are just way too much for what you get, good though they are. Also, there seems to be a bit of discrepancy on the prices at the moment, Steve Osborne has an offer on Christmas trailers four, I think I read $125, yet the start price here is £160 ($223 dollars) or BIN £224. Thats all going to put some people off.
Aside that, some of mine have those now well known streaks, so that being the case, a negative is no good if Andec had issues which they did. Dave Baker put a hell of a lot of effort into his releases and had a fair amount of trouble with some of the titles, to be fair to him, Andec were way out of order printing these and sending them out as a product. I know it got sorted in the end but it didn't help him.

But, back to the threads point, the need for a negative, despite what was said elsewhere is now not a necessity. The end result will be dependent on the sourced digital product.

I'm still curious about what I asked about in another thread -- is "Dave" releasing another Chris Lee Dracula digest -- RISEN FROM THE GRAVE? I never hear about these releases until they're gone -- where is the official place to buy? Steve Osbourne?

Regarding replacement footage, I thought of another example of what would interest me in 16mm -- a reel of original M-G-M titles for the Laurel and Hardy shorts and features. Back when Film Preservation Associates (FPA) was still in business, I believe some people requested that David Shepard make a reel like this available, since many of the L&H releases he had DID have the original titles. For whatever reason (probably cost), it never happened.

I never bought an FPA print since they were uber-expensive, and I was able (and still am able) to get great looking 16mm L&H prints for a fraction of that price. If I remember correctly, an L&H 2-reeler in 16mm was almost $200 -- and that was 20 years ago. With patience, you can get most for about $50 today in great condition. I've never seen an FPA print, though. The first time I bought a L&H in 16mm I was hooked -- night and day compared to Super 8 for those titles from Blackhawk.

I'm not too sure about the Dracula film, nor am I sure if Dave is doing any more due to lack of interest as understand.

I would have bought one of his copies of DRACULA (1958) that he had on eBay recently -- but they had sound issues that would have frustrated me. They were under $100, though. Not sure why with his resources, Dave couldn't re-record the sound. I would assume he has a GS1200 to even do it himslef, but perhaps not.

These go for over $300 new, correct? That's about 3x more than I'm willing to pay for less than 20 minutes.

These new releases I’m sure are very nice but lm afraid the price is too much for me does seem a lot for what it is.Still I’m sure it will appeal to some.
As for the negative issue,l like Tom have had replacement footage made from a digital version,800 ft for the feature Serpico at a reasonable price in 16mm and if you were not aware personally I don’t think you would see any difference.Again only my opinion.If the digital source had not been available I would suggest the cost of my replacement footage would not have been practical.

Gwyn, yes I can confirm that, here is the review I did when you kindly loaned me the movie, a great film it is too, and again, spot the new parts in these images, its around 20/25 minutes if I recall and a perfect match in every way.

Serpico. Theatrical print.

Let me add a message from Steve Osbourne hear, this one will interest Thomas I think,

QUOTE
"I now sell Dave's films and he can get a new print for $258. The prints are stunning".
END QUOTE.
Thomas, it will be worth contacting Steve for details regarding the Dracula film.

Thanks, Tom. So that's for RISEN FROM THE GRAVE?

$258 for 20 mins? Ouch! Best to wait until someone sells it on the used market for much less. If that ever happens, lol.
I'd prefer (HORROR OF) DRACULA, though you can't beat Veronica Carlson!

I know they must get approval for copyrighted material for new releases, but how are they able to print stuff up for individuals who want replacement footage? Or is it just wink, wink, nod, nod, say no more?

I have no idea on that one, all i care about is that i have five restored feature films that could have ended up in landfill and none of them are to sell publicly to make money and are all one offs for my home use only not runs of of 20 or 30 for sale.

BTW, at the present time, i honestly dont think any of the new releases will decrease in value any time soon. When they occassionaly come up on the second hand market they hold there price well, some even selling for more than when new.

Wenn Sie hier auf Links zu eBay klicken und einen Kauf tätigen, kann dies dazu führen, dass diese Website eine Provision erhält.

Dave himself just sold these for a fraction of the price, albeit with minor sound issues:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/296073156094?hash=item44ef55d5fe:g:bbUAAOSw~MllUTst&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4AHmBhocpw176RxYy8h2Ip4q%2FJ8TTF7DKxVx7RtoOdSDBKzVF2CwnV6LQFJmDNxbsfqPMlAObQuWGT8%2FwvHk9DLUQh338I7Lrwx6HDGAC%2F3WUU0mNqdxTL4cGOXlFf9YMPtxqldql7lpqMMtAmTEKYbmOahmOMtE%2BUhUsyBUHatWspqH5KGHq0%2FFEOEpQe63i2ZLVWEYeIwtzi1G9qLhBWuEf24DBSHNX4sv92vA%2FUaPUCQ4ianEWv8FyYgn0bfmwsOhA2w5Y4m76Veg0%2FnzjRMQCUczGBuwHKrvPaCIPfGi%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR5TmxOSGYw

https://www.ebay.com/itm/296043225292?hash=item44ed8d20cc:g:BWwAAOSwd31lUS0s&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4PplC21Q0kK4i62K0MxvCcmJhaDdvlT7eZXAwOUQGDUd4UeRLvZ4DAlfGOx2TuKzL5T0owyiE4TdC%2BEYUJmrQ74d5Y456UR5CX8PKh9c0%2Fv%2B83QIQglwAKOoNvY9rPznECCng2GjHP8uaLmfPUZsFS2Tjs%2FjiZwFpugdgXGrGI%2F50yKJ%2By0iab7LBLkw60SIlbM7w5JnEyxR%2FUgkJIS3iur6UYo1nIIkDm42b5hM2ZBdrEHzhxkgvdPVmZeRX%2Fk8SUNtoI5WCQz%2FUN7XfxHQKts5hTeLQ%2ByTJ8FN5FqzPaqA%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR5bmxOSGYw

For posterity when the links go dead: $99 and $80, 2 copies of (HORROR OF) DRACULA (1958) 20 minute digest.