I know this is an old subject, but it is one that still confuses me only because there are so many views on this. I am fine with 8mm, just the 16s.
First of all, up until now, i have always given our 16mm films a clean up, and have to add, some of the muck that has come off a couple of prints does surprise me.

The only reason i ask is simple, as i understand it, many experienced collectors do clean them, while others have said, they never clean them. I know 16mm prints were often treated by the companies with a professional polish.

We use filmguard, but recently i used another collectors home cleaner and have to say, it really did work wonders, it certainly made one of my prints run a lot quieter through the gate.

Heres the thing, i use Eiki projectors, and talking to Bill a couple of years ago he did mention that 16mm can be a bit more fussy than 8mm when it comes to cleaning sometimes resulting in unsteady images.
I believe that some Bell & Howells can play up if a film has too much cleaner with the film running all over the place within the gate causing a very unsteady picture. So far, i havnt encountered that with the Eiki's.

My reason for the question is this, i ran a 16mm film, it has no damage and only a splice or two throughout. Last time i ran it the projector it purred through nice and quite.
After a clean up it appeared to be quite noisey through the gate which i found most weird. No problems other than the odd slight jump, (heard through the gate).
When i clean a print with FG, upon reversing back onto the spool i use a clean cotton cloth to make sure any excess is taken off. Hardly any pressure at all, i am simply spreading the cleaner evenly throughout the print whilst removing any excess.

Many years ago we bought a Standard 8 print of Great Day in the Morning from Roger Lily here in Plymouth. It was a 5 x 400ft colour feature but the sound was muffled. Roger himself asked us to take it back and he would clean it up with then 222. When we viewed it, the film would not stop jumping up and down all the way through. He took it back again and said he had put on too much cleaner and had to remove it. Since then our Standard 8s get very little cleaner put on them. It hasn't happened since that one. BTW, the sound never did improve, great colour print though.

What are your thoughts on the 16mm side please? What so you think of this one print that was quite and is now noisier after a clean?

I think most cleaners also lubricate at the same time. It's important to lubricate the film. I wouldn't run a dry print as you risk damaging the perforations. I also apply plenty of fluid to the outside edges of the film after it has been rewound after cleaning. It's true that if you apply too much fluid you can get problems with B&H projectors, but I think I've only had this happen twice, and it was OK after I run it through a dry cloth. Hopefully, I only need to clean/lubricate a film once. I wouldn't like to do it too often, I would wonder if I'm getting more than dirt on my cloth.

I usually clean my 16mm films as they come in through the door. I use Film Renew, which is very good at removing the muck but it is different than Film Guard. I could be way off here but I have always thought of Film Renew more as a cleaner, and FG more as a "lubricant" to help it stay supple, and go through the film gate easier. But again, I may be incorrect on this.

I have heard that when a print is chattering it means it is overly dry and needs to regain a touch of slipperiness.
But it sounds like you are having the opposite issue--that freshly cleaned prints are 'chattering'....so not much help from me here I'm afraid...

When I receive a newly purchased 16mm I always slowly run it on my rewind and gently hold it between thumb, fingers and palm of hand. This way I can feel if any perfs are torn and if any repairs are needed, such as to poor joins, etc.

Every few minutes I stop and check my fingers and hand. They may be relatively clean, or dirty, or even very dirty. I can then decide if the print should be cleaned with Isopropanol (Isopropyl Alcohol).

The cleaning will only be done after any repair work has been carried out.

Don't ask why, but I have never used FilmGuard.

Thanks for the reply's, (so far),
Greg, I wish we could get film renew over here, i understand it to be one of the banned items via the wonderful EU. I wish i bought some when i had the chance from Ireland.
While it states, "film cleaner and lubricator", i also believe it to be more of a lube than a cleaner. I know others do swear by it, i always use to use and swear by 2.22 even though it was lethal to breathe in.

Maurice, while i do use filmguard and still have quite a bit of it, there are a lot of collectors who dont like it. It took me a while to get to grips with how little you actually use.

If a new 16mm feature turns up ,after I've ran the first few feet you know if it needs a clean or not, normally the noise through the gate tells me it's not been done for a while. If it has a few light lines I'll clean it too, I use Elmo CL's mostly for 16mm and they run pretty quiet so any extra noise is quite obvious. I clean as I project so I know I'm not damaging it in any way, (I once scratched a film on rewinds and didn't know until I projected it so dont use them now) if a lot of dirt comes off I clean it twice, Mark

Mark, im the same regarding how much dirt comes off.if loads comes off on the first clean then mine gets it twice. Its only happened to one 16mm print and that was bugles in the afternoon. It was black on first clean on the cloth.i was turning the cloth every 50 to a hundred foot on first pass.After the second clean the films image was so much better.

I agree Tom it doesn't happen too often cleaning twice, my films were The Italian Job and Mary Poppins both very dirty, afterwards the cloths were black, both ran well and picture quality was much improved, Mark

Maurice, out of interest, how sparingly do you use the isopropanol and is it safe on film?

Colin

First of all I remove a small amount from the 1 litre container and decant it into an old small medicine bottle which lives on my rewind bench.

Taking a clean cotton cloth I dribble a small amount onto a small squarish area. Then, fold it over the film between the two spools and rewind slowly thus allowing the Isopropanol to evaporate. After some 200ft or so I stop and check if the cloth is still wet, if so, I continue as before, but usually apply more liquid to the cloth.

Isopropanol is also used to remove those awful patches of residue on the leaders where sticky tape has been used to hold down the film in transit. It can also be used to clean projectors, old film cans, and many more items.

I have used it for years with no trouble at all, although I rarely use it on Super 8 magnetic prints, only usually for 16mm films which are much older.

Colin, a long time film collector used isopropanol on a super 8 black and white print a few years ago and it warped it, I'm sure it was the Derann film cleaner which was awful stuff, he never used it again, Mark

Thanks for the replies guys. Sounds like this debate will roll on.

Whilst Mark's reference may be true regarding Super 8, I have never experienced any warping using Isopropanol with 16mm films.

I appreciate that using the various cleaning fluids on film help to clean and lubricate said film and its passage through the projector,many years ago if memory serves me I saw a projectionist apply polish,the wax type to a 35mm film and gently rub it into the film edge on a spooled up film.Obviously this was only a small amount of wax,not the whole tin....... and the reason being to help the film have a smooth passage through the machine.
I have never tried it ,and I do not routinely apply cleaner unless the film is filthy it’s just the way I was shown.
Just wondered if anyone else has done this or anything like it.

When I first got into the hobby in the early 70s, a lot of films seemed very dry. Movie Maker recommended smearing Vaseline on the outside edge of the film. I was only buying silent films at that time. I wasn't keen on doing that, but it made the passage smoother. A bit later I saw adverts for 2.22 film lubricant/cleaner, and bought that. It made lots of claims, covering scratches, preventing scratches, and protecting the magnetic soundtrack, among others.
I have heard of people using furniture spray polish to lubricate their films.

Wasn't this problem with the Derann Film Cleaner associated with Polyester films?

Gwyn's comments about waxing reminds me of when I became a trainee projectionist at the Odeon, Bristol, in 1952. We had a Rigby Waxer. It stood upright and slipped into a bracket attached to the rewind bench.

It took pieces of wax somewhat the same size as sticks of chewing gum, and with the assistance of a weight each side, the two strips of wax were gently held against the perforations of a film which was wound from spool to spool

It was used if we received green prints, i.e., straight from the film laboratories.

Its funny what all say there.
When i first got my own films, a friend of mine also read about applying vasline to the edges. There was no way i was ever going to do that but he did, i cant recal if he had any problems but i cannot begin to imagine the mess that would have eventually built up in the projectors film path and gate.
Maurice, regarding waxing, Derek at Derann did that article regarding super 8 opticle sound films.i think i put it on here somewhere. He explained that the reason these prints had some hiss and pops on the sound was because 8mm prints were not deemed as important as 16mm prints so the process of the final wax polishing was never applied to 8mm prints. Hense the pops and hiss.
When i spoke to Kevin Brown some years ago he also said that he never cleans 16mm prints because they have the wax treatment (all be it many years ago) & of course filmguard can cause problems with some 16mm projectors as well as remove any professional waxing..
Any of my own prints that get cleaned only have a very small amout.
I also recall Dave Guest mentioned a problem with it looking and feeling geasy and very problematic to remove.
Half the problem is that there is zero information on a filmguard bottle so one one knows what its main chemical is.

Thanks all I am not loosing it and the more I thought about it I’m 99% sure the film was Gold starring Roger Moore that the wax was applied to.Why I don’t know save it might have been the first run of the print as Maurice said and why Gold I have no idea.
Has anyone by chance used wax on 16mm or anything more unusual?

PS for Ana Valine,no please do not use wax on vinegar prints I dread to think what it might do!!!😀

Well, here's the thing, and i think the proof that Maurice is right not to use this filmgaurd on 16s. Today i did a bit of a test with a reel of film that was running quite, then After a filmguard clean, appeared to run noisier, when in fact the whole point of a clean is for the film to run quieter and smoother. Bere in mind i use Eiki not B & H.
I took the said reel which ran noisier after a clean, my thinking was, perhaps when i rewound using a dry cotton cloth to take off the excess, maybe i was simply taking off too much.
Nope, i gave the reel (only half of it) a normal clean, put it on and the poxy thing was indeed jumping up and down on this section of the movie much to my annoyance. A few choice words were shouted out in frustration!!!!
Now i will remove the cleaner altogether using the isopropanol & hope it cures it.
I was warned about filmguard on 16mm prints but it's weird as up until now i havnt had a problem.
Tomorrow i will be viewing our print of Zulu Dawn. All our films were cleaned with FG when bought, (not the film in question in this thread though) and so far none have showed the same problem. I will let you know how it goes tomorrow or Friday. I'm hoping it's a one off. But i dont think i will be using this crap on 16mm prints again. It's fine on the 8mm though.
Obviously i will be using the isopropanol to clean the gate and pressure pad as i assume this stuff will have nicely coated these areas too.

Pleased to say Zulu Dawn ran perfectly well with no problems.