Right guys, this is the question.

What would you film collectors say is an acceptable amount of splices for a supposedly "Excellent" condition modern Derann print, 4 x 600' mounted on two 1200' spools, let's say at a cost to you of £260.00.

I would like as much feedback as possible with this please.

Two, between the 600' changes is excellent, but personally, if no frames are lost, I could accept up to five.

I would agree with Vidar but you could have lab splices which is acceptable and their was nothing Derann could do about it as the labs used to use up lengths of film.

Dave

To my calculation Del 6, one to join them and one at each end for leader in and out, so the same for the other 1200 foot reel. I would not expect any more unless damage has
occurred to the film or someone has removed some footage from the feature.

Three on each reel, but only one on the image itself. I have had lab splices in the middle of a film, but they were very good.

I'd agree with Paul's assessment. It's reasonable now to accept that leaders and tails at each end of 600ft original release may have been removed to place on larger spools at one time or another.

It's reasonable also to accept that some films may have been mounted to 800ft spools at one time or another. So this again would account for an odd splice in between 600ft runs as were original.

It's also worth remembering, many many Derann releases were mounted illogically initially. Many of the 4x 600ft Disney Derann releases were sometimes mounted on 3x 600ft spools while on a different occasion could just simply be mounted as a 4x 600ft edition??? Sometimes with as little as 300ft mounted onto a 600ft spool.

In stark contrast, many is the time when I've seen ridiculously overspooled 600ft reels from original.
Reels 4 and 5 from Mary Poppins need their film clips leaving on while they're threaded such is the unbelievable amount of film on these two reels!

Then, as has been said, we have to make allowances for lab splices occasionally.

So to conclude, all in all, there should never really be more than 4 splices in any 600ft run of film and even less if original lead or tail is still in tact.
As the middle ones should never really occur on every reel of Film, I'd accept up to 6 for a 1200ft mounted feature for each reel.

This would be my personal maximum for a film described as excellent so far as condition is concerned.

No splices if you describe it as excellent and paid £260, where the film's joined is fine though but other than those it isn't an excellent condition film, Mark

Personally, I feel Mark's assessment may be being slightly unrealistic in this day and age now.
This ruling may have been reasonable a few years back, but as time moves along, it's reasonable in my humble opinion, to expect a feature to have been mounted on many different reel permutations by now.

I base these comments only on my own personal experiences of buying many different Derann features in the past five years.

Excellent now to me personally, means little or no visible deep scratches and superb colour still and no missing frames as a result of mounting differently over the years.

Of course others may be of a different opinion but we DO have to remain realistic since these films are now many decades on from when they were very first purchased in nearly all cases from Derann.

Again, realistically now, £260 isn't by any means an extortionate amount to pay for a popular feature if in very good overall shape.
Many sell for much much more!

At the end of the day, if a film has 10 or more splices in a 1200ft run, I doubt it should ever still be described as excellent.

Andrew,
You say I'm being slightly unrealistic then you describe the film exactly as i have in a round about way? The price is also not the issue but £260 is a fair amount, it could be £500 but the description should be the same if your buying on good faith, also whether it be yesterday or 10 years ago if your parting with your hard earned cash time won't make a bad description a good one, Mark

Well guys I've watched the print in question and lost count of the number of splices to both 1200' spools, I will make a detailed inspection tomorrow but if I was hazarding a guess I would say around 10 per 1200' spool and none of those were lab splices (I can accept those). It's clear the guy has cut the film into sections to re record it into Spanish and then spliced it back together again. There was also a lot of I would call it speckled dust and I mean a lot, not in the EXCELLENT condition the seller has stated and no there was NO mention of any splices in his description whatsoever, it's now in the hands of ebay, has anyone else had a similar experience and what was the outcome?

Yes sorry Mark, I read your post as saying no splices, but if you are accepting for re spooling splices also,.. then indeed, I'm in full agreement with you.

No Del, I've personally never received a film with as many as 10 splices per 1200ft.

I have however received plenty that were described as excellent that were far from it!

Great feedback guys, much appreciated

I am glad the prints I sell are not splicey

If you describe them with splices David and other faults that are obvious you shouldn't have a problem.

Del,
10 splices is a bit naughty and not acceptable, it was either not watched by the seller or just trying it on and hoping you wouldn't notice them!!! Pretty hard not to I know!! Mark

I would say you been ripped off Del,hope you can get the film sorted.Why can't people be honest makes life difficult for all.

These chancers always tend to leave some kind of an ambiguous statement or what they would say, is a disclaimer, like "sold as is" or the likes, but that does nothing to reveal the real issues often encountered with many used films.

I guess honesty throughout simply leads to a lower price point than desired, for these guys, and therefore, will always be too much to ask for very sadly! 😠😠

The main disappointment I find, is all the hassles associated with sending these items back and then getting your money back, I find.
I think most of these sales work on the assumption, many cannot be bothered even trying.

The only way to end these type of sales, is to ensure in each and every case the end result is a satisfactory one for the victim, albeit buyer or seller when one party is clearly taking the piss.

Del, that is a bit naughty of the seller. i for one always try to very hard to describe films i sell as honestly as possible. if it has splices i say so.10 per 1200ft spool is far from excellent condition, he should have stated if the movie had been chopped for re-recording then back again.

one thing i must ask Del, are you happy with the print and did you enjoy the movie? If you did then that is what counts.

Anything under 300 for a full derann feature on LPP stock seems reasonable now. It is this kind of costing for a movie though that is making me look more toward 16mm, (though not too many) and dare i say it, seriously into blu-ray projection, tonight i viewed another one and again i simply cannot say a bad word about it. No fade,no splices, excellent Dolby sound and pin sharp edge to edge, the cost of the film was £8.99.
The film was Silence of the Lambs, i very much would like a super 8 copy, but i know how much it would be & having viewed it on BR tonight i cannot see how i could justify spending £300+ for it.

I have recently bought a few films and have to add how pissed off i am with a description of excellent condition only to find two them F****** fading, & over a 100 quid as well. As Andy said its the returning and everything else that goes with it. The extreme case for me was all the hassle of returning the T610 back to Europe, not once but twice i didn't lose any money but the hassle & disappointment was almost a turning point for me as to weather to continue in the hobby. It was a close call.

It is a hobby now only for the most passionate and dedicated, it has to be said. It is plagued with many goods that are well past their best. To decipher the good stuff time after time without coming across some of the trash, is a skill far beyond what most collectors (myself very much included) can expect.

It's a labour of love Tom and if you saw Del's projected Blu Ray on his top notch Sony Home Cinema dedicated projector, for many, I doubt you'd nowadays find an argument for watching and buying £200 plus cine films for all but the most devoted any more.

Del still loves his films, and so will I continue to love mine, irrespective of whatever disappointments we encounter along the way.
Like yourself Tom, for Del, myself and countless others here and elsewhere, it's simply in the veins.

No point trying to quantify it or reason beyond that fact and that fact alone.

very true there Andy, it is exactly as you say a hobby and we will continue to enjoy our extensive collection, there's no doubt we will continue to add to it but like Dells experience with this film a few disappointments can be very expensive, fortunately film wise we havnt been too unlucky but it is becoming harder to find the really decent stuff these days unless you have a very healthy bank account, and with the exception of most of the regular contributors on the forums it is also becoming difficult to trust who you buy from.

WOW guys, some fantastic posts with some very good and valid points. My whole take on this is:

When I see a film advertised as in excellent condition I expect just that, a near perfect film, no matter what price is paid for it, if it's not then don't advertise it as excellent. I have never ever sold a film as excellent because I can always find some slight defect even if it's a light scratch here and there. The splice issue is this, excellent means no excess splices, meaning I would expect 1 for the two 600' spools to be spliced together and that is it, as mentioned I would expect a near perfect film, I could live with the odd 1 more in case of damage or whatever. Price wise, believe me £260.00 of hard earned cash is a fair price for a modern Derann print but when it's not in the excellent condition you was expecting it's a big disappointment and then of course it's all the hassle of returning it, mind you the seller has told me it's sold as seen and he is refusing a return point blank.

Tom, I watched the film last night and yes the print was very good visually but the jump every 10 minutes from yet another splice was distracting. I just wanted what I had actually paid for.

I wholeheartedly agree Del.

What I find very interesting though, is that Del has said here, that he now never advertises any of his films still as "excellent" where condition is concerned.

As he quite correctly says, this is because nigh on all films now have at least one blemish or another from using these many times over the years.

This said, we DO still frequently see films advertised as "excellent" or "as new" ?

I myself, do not sell any of my films since being back in the hobby aside from one or two isolated instances where I've known its something one of our collecting pals was looking for and it was something I was willing to part with.

If I did however, I would also class many of my titles as in "excellent" shape despite the fact they may contain one or two minor flaws occasionally.

The reason? Well simply because I believe realistically that this is about as good as you can expect to find now in this era based on my own experiences of purchasing these things.

The point I'm making is that even an individuals take on the terminology used is ambiguous now in this era.

All I can conclude from this experience, kindly shared by Del, is that perhaps we all now, have to cover almost all possibilities of what may be wrong with a print, by asking ALL of the necessary questions to avoid disappointment on arrival.

When I've felt I've hit a raw nerve with an individual seller while negotiating for a film, the conversation suddenly becomes evasive I've found.
You begin hearing sentences like " you know my reputation is a good one, why do you feel the need to ask these questions" and such like.

This is a clever sales ploy to attempt to make you feel guilty for asking certain questions surrounding a print.

Typically, once negotiations have gone down this route, there lies the end of the pursuit as you simply find yourself smelling a rat.

If you've nothing to hide, you can answer almost all questions openly and honestly.
If there is something you'd rather not disclose, then most likely I wouldn't want to put up with it either.

I agree with everyone's point - I would take "excellent", "mint", etc. to mean essentially a brand new piece of film.

Dell, may we ask what the title of the film is?
Its not DH is it

Wenn Sie hier auf Links zu eBay klicken und einen Kauf tätigen, kann dies dazu führen, dass diese Website eine Provision erhält.

All will be revealed Tom on Monday when it goes to ebay. I have gone through the print and there are a total of 21 splices in all, 13 on reel 1 and 8 on reel 2 and the guy say's this many is an acceptable amount of splices, I have taken photo's of all the splices ready for my case.