I have ,as you all know, been a collector of many years and started my scope showings using the Isco gottingen that was bought as a starter kits years ago from Derann and it's still going strong and used today, always been happy with the results to. As you will see from the images here is the lens i use, with a bracket to fit the Elmo ST1200HD perfectly, one simple screw to put it on and remove. Also the original box with that universal bracket. I'm sure it will come in handy one day

Now then, i have read a lot of comments on both channels regarding scope and the scope lens's, my question to all you chaps lucky enough to own the Kowa 8Z is this, I use the Elmo 1:1 lens for projection, being very serious, if i had my scope lens then put up the Kowa 8Z is the difference in image truly that much better?

There are two things here, my old screen is now appearing a little off white, so its time to sort that out, thats easy, however, i have read all about the Kowa 8Z and the price of these is now quite high and i would be mightily peed off if i forked out a few hundred only to watch my scope films and think, Really?
Does anyone on here also use the Isco gottingen and if so how do you personally rate this lens?
It is obvious that a better lens will produce a better and brighter image but exactly how do they compare?

The Isco lenses Tom are some of the very best. In today's world at least, this is no starter kit I can assure you!

The Kowa 8-Z is renowned for being one of the very best lenses for use with Super 8mm machines but I doubt the difference over and above the superb Isco Gottingen lenses would warrant further expenditure to be honest.

The only thing I'm not 100% certain over, is what this lens of yours is ideally suited for ie 16mm or 8mm but if you see no vignetting, I wouldn't worry and your scope images here are always as good if not better than anyone else's.

For what you'd spend pursuing the Kowa 8-Z, you could invest in a nice new scope ratio or 16:9 electric screen with a beautiful bright white new surface.
That's where my money would be going with what you already have and you'll still have a few Bob left over for Christmas compared to buying another unnecessary scope lens if you shopped for it wisely.

Is your Isco a fixed focal length type Tom?

Thanks Andy, good to hear that.
This particular lens is suited more to super 8 than 16, i did try it on the 16 but it wasn't playing ball, as luck would have it we do have the much larger Sankor 16D for the Elf 16mm and that is a really good lens and with the larger rear barrel size to, it produces a hell of size image with the lens i bought form DG but my room is a tad too small to take full advantage.

Cine equipment I find, is no different to much else in the audio visual world.

To get good equipment you have to pay a certain amount. But to get just a bit better the expenditure is totally exponential.
It's the same for bespoke hi fi.
5k sounds amazing but if you want anything even a little better, you're looking at spending the kind of money that Martin reported about in HCC this month when he reviewed a 19k speaker package! Yikes.

At this level the differences are really only of significant importance to the absolute purists of this world.

As you say its as good as the size of your bank account i guess, it is unreal what you could spend on equipment.

My isco lens is the same as yours Tom, but cost so little from Derann just after the closure announcement (£5.00 ) it doesn't worry me too much in the like for like scientific measurement against another scope lens including the kowa scope lens because it cost so little. To be honest I have more trouble getting it to line up to the screen than worrying about an edge to edge focus on a film, I think some films lend themselves better to scope than others, I just concentrate on enjoying the film in super 8 scope, once upon a time in the west is pretty good in scope, your get real sense of the wide open plains, the wide wide west if you like .....

It was £90k, Andrew, not £19k!

I think they call it diminishing returns.

at the very end of my first reply Tom, I asked the question as to whether or not this particular lens is of fixed focal length and does rely on being set a certain distance from the screen to get the optimum performance from it?

If it is, then I had one similar when I first returned to the hobby and used to use it with a ST1200HD I had at that time.
At 20ft away from the screen the lens did look fairly sharp but with some vignetting despite being supplied just for Super 8mm usage.
Once the lens was used outside of this set distance, the sharpness on the type I had did drop off drastically and eventually after obtaining the Proskar and Kowa lenses, I passed it on.

For the Isco Lenses with the focussing ring, I think the quality of the lens elements is considered very good indeed.

I did read Kevin's comments regarding the scope lens question of yours over on Film Tech Tom. He said he had seen varying results from different Kowa lenses.
I sincerely believe him, but all I could add is that I've seen 4 different set ups all using this lens and at least on each of those I've witnessed if I include my own now, results have been consistently good on screen though to be fair, none I've seen were projected onto a screen as wide as the one I'm using now, from all of the others I've seen in person.

I believe there is no real weakness in the lens quality, only the source material at times, in which case no lens could ever make some appear razor sharp or ultra bright.

I have the Kowa 8Z bought back in the late seveties when prices were more realistic I also have for my super 8 the Iscorama 54 now this is one big beast. I used this for filming its 1.5 squeeze. For my 16mm I think its the Sankor? got this because my Elf had the scope bracket fitted and this lens fitted.

The point on some films made for the scope screen. Two that are on super 8 spring to mind Derann's Raise The Titanic and Movieland's The Riddle Of The Sands. Had only seen them flat on Laserdisc before, in scope they really open up and improve your involvement.

I agree regarding Raise The Titanic David of which I have a print and found even using the not so clever Proskar lens for Super 8mm scope viewing, faired well.

Ironically though, I was only reading a day or so ago how somebody was far more pleased having the flat print as they felt the scope version wasn't too good.

It really does seem to vary from print to print or one set up to another, let alone title release to a different title release.

The Iscorama lens is the one recommended to fit into the factory Beaulieu scope lens bracket, but of course being 1.5x scope lens it is useless on these machines for 2x anamorphic prints like the commercially released one's.
I think the recommendation was purely based on the filmmakers perspective with these machines.