Film Talk in general » Why do people *try* to sell films with VS?

#1 by Thomas Peters , Fri Mar 17, 2023 2:32 am

At least they are honest. Are they trying to sell them for less than if they did not have VS? Yes. Are they bargain priced? Not IMO. Shouldn't these be put in the trash? They are "diseased" films, IMO.

The cynic in me thinks that whoever buys them will try to mask the smell with lots of film cleaner and quickly flip them for a profit. Then if the buyer smells VS, the seller will say it didn't smell of VS before he shipped it!

#2 by Tom Photiou , Fri Mar 17, 2023 8:08 am

I must agree that this is one that baffles me. Why would anyone add that to a collection, even if kept well clear of their other films?
It's like the collectors who pay good money for a red film, I dont get it al all.
The only thing I can think is, perhaps if the price paid is very low, the buyer may view it once or twice and then bin it, but again, Why?
ne of life's mysteries

#3 by Thomas Peters , Fri Mar 17, 2023 3:58 pm

Quote: Tom Photiou wrote in post #2
I must agree that this is one that baffles me. Why would anyone add that to a collection, even if kept well clear of their other films?
It's like the collectors who pay good money for a red film, I dont get it al all.

Well, in some strange way I can see buying a film with faded color, because most likely you will not be able to get that particular title in low-fade. And when it comes to digests, you may be a collector of them, and it is fun to see how well/bad the editing is. That being said, the worst faded films I have (which are very, very few) are ones that I bought that way; ones that I bought new some 40-50 years ago, while they have some fade, are not particularly bad. The ones I bought faded were what I would consider bargain-priced, though.

Quote: Tom Photiou wrote in post #2

The only thing I can think is, perhaps if the price paid is very low, the buyer may view it once or twice and then bin it, but again, Why?
one of life's mysteries

Well, I haven't checked completed sales, but the prices I see, whether for a starting bid, or buy-it-now, are not low enough (for me, anyway) where I would consider it worth it to watch the film a handful of times. And these are not prints of LONDON AFTER MIDNIGHT, for crying out loud! They are usually common titles that you can purchase for perhaps 25% to 50% more. Then when you consider that you woud need to thoroughly clean your projector's film path after viewing it if you plan to then screen a non-VS print, it really is not worth it.

And sellers are usually "cute" with the descriptions, even though they admit a vinegar smell. "It ran OK through MY projector." "It kept the focus well on MY projector." So if it doesn't run OK for you, it must be YOUR projector, lol.

Sort of like other "normal" listings. "I didn't notice any splices." You see, he didn't say there were NO splices; he simply said that HE didn't NOTICE any.
"Condition is excellent FOR ITS AGE." I learned long ago, when grading things like vinyl records, that condition has NOTHING to do with the items age. For example, VG+ for a record is the same whether it was pressed last week or 50 years ago. Many sellers don't realize that. I bought a record once that was VG+ that had so much surface noise that it was unlistenable. When I complained, the seller said, "Well, what did you expect for a 50 year old record?" What did I expect? I expected you to grade the stupid record properly.

Almost a quarter century ago, I bought a 16mm film off the bay they had a slight scent of vinegar. For whatever reason, I never contacted the seller, since this was in the early days of the bay, and it woulld have been a hassle. I didn't notice it right away, but after a few days I did. So I soaked it in Film Renew for a few weeks. It got rid of the smell. I've projected the print, and have sniffed it regularly over the years. I also stored it out of a can (as I do all my 16mm films.) It may have a hint of some sort of smell, which may or may not be vinegar. I've kept it away from other films but IMO sometimes a hint of a smell that could be vinegar is not necessarily VS. I think almost 25 years is a pretty good sample size.

Also, since VS is caused when the film is processed (I forgot exactly how, something to do with rinsing it properly), for some reason I've never heard of a Super 8 or Standard 8mm film getting vinegar. I have another 16mm film with absolutely no smell that won't project properly, but is severely warped. It looks likes a spider web on the reel. When I received it, it was on a core, and showed no signs of it. When I projected it, it jumped a lot in the gate, with uneven focus, and when I rewound it it was a spider-web. Luckily, I got a full refund and was told to keep it. I have cleaned it with Film Renew, and it helped a lot with projection for one viewing only. I haven't had a chance to give it a good soak in Film Renew for the simple reason that I haven't had enough Film Renew to cover the film while in a can.

#4 by Maurice Leakey , Fri Mar 17, 2023 6:00 pm

It is possible that some sellers are not usually a seller of films and therefore doesn't know what VS is.

#5 by Tom Photiou , Fri Mar 17, 2023 9:59 pm

I agree Maurice, unfortunately, a lot of sellers advertise, "does have a smell of vinegar", or, "0does have VS". The later, should not be selling it, the film should be binned.
Warping is an odd one, a few of my 16s do have a little warping but they project perfectly well without any need to adjust the focus. I keep all my films tight on their reels by bench rewinding every time. It'll never fix it but hopefully does help a little.

#6 by Thomas Peters , Sat Mar 18, 2023 12:48 am

Quote: Maurice Leakey wrote in post #4
It is possible that some sellers are not usually a seller of films and therefore doesn't know what VS is.

Actually, I was referring to collectors of films, since they say it projects OK despite the smell, and often show screenshots.

#7 by Thomas Peters , Sat Mar 18, 2023 1:09 am

Quote: Tom Photiou wrote in post #5
I agree Maurice, unfortunately, a lot of sellers advertise, "does have a smell of vinegar", or, "0does have VS". The later, should not be selling it, the film should be binned.
Warping is an odd one, a few of my 16s do have a little warping but they project perfectly well without any need to adjust the focus. I keep all my films tight on their reels by bench rewinding every time. It'll never fix it but hopefully does help a little.

I only have that one 16mm film that I would call "warped" with the spider-web syndrome, for lack of a better term. I have some Super 8 and Standard 8mm films that have "baggy sag" syndrome even with an attempt at a tight rewind on manual rewinds. They project fine, though. To avoid "baggy sag" on the take-up reel, and potential overflow, the trick is to flip the film before attaching it to the take-up. Then, if desired (though I've never done it), rewind normally, then on the next projection, flip before you feed, then flip again for take-up.

As I mentioned, a good soak in Film Renew is supposed to greatly improve any degree of warp, and may even fix it. I believe you need to flip it and put it on a take-up reel before soaking.

I'm not sure a less-than-tight rewind causes any of the degrees of warp. Supposedly a too hot lamp in the projector causes it, but I believe that might be more internet speculation than anything else. Certainly a tight-rewind can't hurt (as long as you avoid "cinching"), but since some environmental factor must cause it, and perhaps like VS the way the film was originally processed. If that is the case, it seems very doubtful that a tight rewind would stave off the environmental effects.

Another thing I've noticed -- sound films with a main stripe but no balance stripe always have a slight amount of baggy-sag.

Similar to my observations on color-fade, none of my prints that I originally bought new have ever suffered any degree of warp at all. I have never done anything special, but both as a kid and then an adult up until now, I have always stored my films in the basement, which doubles as a screening room. For reasons other than for the benefit of film, I have been using a dehumidifier in the basement for the last 15 years or so, which is one of the factors recommended for optimal film preservation. I have never done any sort of temperature control, but since my basement is neither heated nor cooled, it does remain fairly cool year-round even when the temperature outside is in the 90s (F).

Actually, I have a Kodak book on film care right here on my shelf. I will try to scan a few pages and post them here sometime in the future. It does show some of the "warping" I have described, and they give many different names depending on the type. Interstingly enough, VS is not discussed anywhere since when it was published in 1983, I don't believe VS had been disovered yet! I picked up this book sometime in the mid 90s at a used bookstore. Reading it actually makes me paranoid! There are so many things that can go wrong with our films, not even considering VS!

#8 by Tom Photiou , Sat Mar 18, 2023 5:42 pm

Sounds like you have the same set up as we do, lower ground area, (but garden level at the back so able to get fresh air and sunshine through when needed,). I also use a dehumidifier when needed although thats only been for the last few years, what a difference it makes though. Temperature stays cool all the year round and the film room itself is always pitch dark, only controlled lighting. While we have not totally escaped some prints fading, the percentage is tiny and those that have faded are the usual suspects, marketing, U8 and older Derann prints.
While we have been very lucky with our collection we did have a very near miss a few years ago when we had a burst pipe in the lower ground area, when I got home it was literally just lapping into the film room. Had we have been away on holiday or for a weekend, we would have lost a mass of our collection and equipment.
Luckily, my Brother has a larger collection at his home so if either of us had a loss at least the other would be ok.
We are in the process of reducing prints now in order to make it more manageable and with better quality.
Having said that, with the recent sad loss of a fellow collector, I also think, sod it, if i see something i want, (as long as I dont need a mortgage to buy it), I will treat myself. You only live once, but we are done with buying faded films and films with excess damage, those days are now long gone.

#9 by Thomas Peters , Sat Mar 18, 2023 6:44 pm

Quote: Tom Photiou wrote in post #8
While we have not totally escaped some prints fading, the percentage is tiny and those that have faded are the usual suspects, marketing, U8 and older Derann prints.

I only have one Marketing print; I bought it in the late 70s, and it shows no fade. (It's just a 400 foot digest.) Most of my U8 prints have held up very well, too. The Disney prints made in the U.K. have held up very well, too. (Not talking about the Derann Disney, which of course hold up well. I have a few short cartoons from them.)

I could have gotten a great deal on JAWS from U8 (2x400 foot) a few months ago, (around $30, I think) but passed because of faded color. It was snapped up pretty quickly, I saw. Someone is selling the new digest right now on the auction site, but it is already bid way up there in price. Color looks fantabulous!!!

#10 by Tom Photiou , Sat Mar 18, 2023 7:17 pm

The marketing prints are hit and miss. The features all seemed to have faded, some to a beetroot red others to pink. There are still some good ones out there including our full feature of the longest yard, reviewed on here. Many of the 3 x 400s are fading but there still seems to be a decent amount of good prints around, many on low fade stock.
A lot of the 400 editions do seem to have very good colurs.
Barry at Independant 8 will be able to tell you more but as i understand it the full features were printed in the states, mainly on crappy fast fade stock, the 3 x 400s and 400s were printed in Germany, mosty on kodak polyester stock. The fade on a couple of our mini features seems to have got to a certain point and then appears to get no worse, I'm sure they will fade to red eventually but a good number of marketing film were on low fade toward the end.

#11 by Thomas Peters , Sun Mar 19, 2023 2:56 am

Quote: Tom Photiou wrote in post #10

Barry at Independant 8 will be able to tell you more but as i understand it the full features were printed in the states, mainly on crappy fast fade stock, the 3 x 400s and 400s were printed in Germany, mosty on kodak polyester stock.

It makes no sense that they would do that, but I've seen stranger things.

One thing that drives me crazy, and this is just my situation, is that just about all of my prints with great LPP color have scratches all over them. This was a result of my first Elmo ST-1200HD. Many of my b&w prints were effected, too, obviously, but it is nowhere near as noticable, nor as heartbreaking, as seeing scratches on beautiful LPP prints. And to think I used to keep the film path immaculately clean, cleaning it after every single reel! It's so ironic that I am not as nitpicky now with keeping projectors clean, though I do clean them after every viewing session, and I no longer get scratches.

#12 by Tom Photiou , Sun Mar 19, 2023 7:41 pm

Your Elmo must have had one heck of a fault to scratch all your films, did you ever have it serviced? The green guides wear on them.

#13 by Thomas Peters , Sun Mar 19, 2023 9:10 pm

Wenn Sie hier auf Links zu eBay klicken und einen Kauf tätigen, kann dies dazu führen, dass diese Website eine Provision erhält.

Quote: Tom Photiou wrote in post #12
Your Elmo must have had one heck of a fault to scratch all your films, did you ever have it serviced? The green guides wear on them.

Yes, I serviced it myself. Once I discovered that the green guide under the sprocket before take-up was the culprit, I fixed it by placing a piece of splicing tape over the worn section. It never scratched a film again. Now I use another one that was in much better condition with no wear on the guides.

I bought the scratcher around 1995 from an ad in Roger Williams' (Media Arts Associates) free publication. He and others sold lots of films and equipment in it. He had some articles, too, much like Steve Osbourne's COMING ATTRACTIONS (now THE REEL IMAGE).

All it takes is a microscopic wear area in the guide to scratch a film. At the time, I thought all scratches would be caused by the gate. That's what I focused on. But it obviously wasn't the gate. I used to coat the gate with film renew before every showing of a film. I never suspected the green guide, though I always cleaned the full path. Unless you took that green guide out of the projector you were not able to see (or more accuratley, feel) what caused the scratch.

That machine is out of commision now, but if I ever fix it, I can get a new lower film guide from Van-eck.

Since I have a large collection of films (even back then), and most are in b&w, most bought used with some scratches already, it wasn't immediately obvious that the projector was scratching films. ("Was that particular scratch there the last time I projected this film?"). It was also the only working sound projector I had for some 10 years. Plus the lines were black, which still has me stumped since the guide touches the emulsion side.

Anyway, lesson learned.

For awhile, people trashed ebay as a reliable place to buy films and equipment, but I wound up with more crap films and equipment when I was buying by answering ads via phone and snail-mail than ebay. Any crap from ebay was always returned with a refund. Before that, I was so happy to get a particular title that I never complained. Who knew that in a few years I could get those same titles for roughy half the price and in much better condition?

#14 by Thomas Peters , Mon Mar 20, 2023 3:47 pm

Saw a listing today for a WB Looney Tunes with VS and warping for bids starting at $50. Unbelievable. Seller claims it's "rare". It will be even rarer when it decomposes or whatever happens to VS films.

#15 by Mark Mander , Sun Mar 26, 2023 8:54 pm

This is something I don't get either, I wouldn't want a VS print and wouldn't be happy to receive one, the smell alone is awful.

I have just finished sorting out a friends collection, it's been 3 months work going through films with VS, some truly great titles have been thrown away, not once did we think about selling any,you'll not cure it so instead of masking the smell or slowing it down to go through it all again it wasn't worth it. I have learnt a lot about VS in the way it starts,reels that didn't have a smell to start with had a smell towards the reel core,this is what took the time,we had to check each reel(a very large collection), hopefully I can now get back to watching my own films , Mark

#16 by Tom Photiou , Sun Mar 26, 2023 9:31 pm

Good to see you on again Mark,
A few months ago I had a chance to buy a low fade copy of the wicker man. I had it ordered but unfortunately, the seller called me to let me know that upon checking the film it had a very strong smell of vinegar. He had it open to gas off for a week but still the smell was very very strong, the price was next to nothing for this title but I turned it down, I really do not wish to add anything with VS to my collection. The fact people buy them is beyond me. I know those who have them say they keep them miles away from the rest of their films but again, why? Straight to the bin is the only answer.

#17 by Graham Sinden , Sun Mar 26, 2023 11:02 pm

Interesting Tom what you say about The Wicker Man in that you say it was a Low Fade copy as I always think that Low Fade also means Polyester stock and as we all know Polyester cannot get VS. So I presume it must have been an Acetate stock with very good 'unfaded' copy. Still a shame for you though.

For myself I wouldn't buy a film with VS and for any films I own unless it was a rare home movie, I would bin it.

As for other sellers I suppose they sell VS films so not to lose any money.

Graham S

#18 by Mark Mander , Sun Mar 26, 2023 11:14 pm

I can only describe what I've been through with VS as throwing great works of art away, it's heartbreaking knowing that IB Tech prints have been binned, titles you dream of owning are now gone, unfortunately my friend isn't that mobile so needed the help, I actually turned him down at first as I couldn't think of anything worse to do, it wasn't easy for him either, I must also add that conditions where the films are stored aren't poor so I'm guessing that they were from former owners that had stored them poorly, metal, cardboard and plastic cans were all affected, luckily he has plenty of polyester prints to not worry about and the Acetate prints will now be checked on a regular basis, Mark

#19 by Thomas Peters , Mon Mar 27, 2023 4:03 am

From what I gather, proper storage may only slow down VS, but if it wasn't processed correctly to begin with, you're sunk. If it was processed correctly, poor storage will not caause VS, but there are many other problems that it will cause.

I haven't checked to see if any films with VS actually sold. The only way a print *should* sell if it is one of a kind, where it can be scanned to digital and then thrown away, similar to decomposing nitrate stock. Someday I might lend my copy of LONDON AFTER MIDNIGHT to be digitized for Blu-Ray. Oops, you didn't hear that!

As far as I know, there are many LPP and IB Tech prints on acetate. I've never associated them with polyester. I'm not sure what kind of stock my LPP Red Fox print of THE ADVENTURES OF ROBIN HOOD is printed on, but I somehow doubt it is polyester.

#20 by Burton Sundquist , Mon Mar 27, 2023 7:44 am

Addressing the topic, why would someone try to sell VS prints?
The answer is "There's a sucker born every minute". These seller are not members of the Hobby and are trying to make a buck. Two important points to emphasize in this thread: Super 8 Acetate prints can develop VS regardless of production errors etc. It is an inherent chemical breakdown of the filmstock when expo sed to high temperatures and high humidity. I have come across more than one example of VS. Prints on acetate stock. The only option was to bin them. The only answer. I have developed a strange practice upon receiving print shipments: "I smell every reel"...Just to add, POLYESTER stock will never get V.S. but it can pick up the smell if stored with acetate prints in cardboard boxes for example. But back to topic...Good Guestion!

#21 by Burton Sundquist , Mon Mar 27, 2023 7:51 am

Addressing the topic, why would someone try to sell VS prints?
The answer is "There's a sucker born every minute". These sellers are not members of the Hobby and are trying to make a buck. Two important points to emphasize in this thread: Super 8 Acetate prints can develop VS regardless of production errors etc. It is an inherent chemical breakdown of the filmstock when expoed to high temperatures and high humidity. I have come across more than one example of VS. Prints on acetate stock. The only option was to bin them. The only answer. I have developed a strange practice upon receiving print shipments: "I smell every reel"...Just to add, POLYESTER stock will never get V.S. but it can pick up the smell if stored with acetate prints in cardboard boxes for example. But back to topic...Good question!

#22 by Tom Photiou , Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:45 am

One of the things i worry about for myself is that my own sense of smell is very poor.
Gwyn pointed me in the direction of a company who sell the paper strips for testing films for VS, but they are £60 a pack.
Perhaps that is very little money to protect the collection.

Found this on youtube which may (or may not) interest some of you. My strips are now on the way. (From the website link kindly sent to me)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=to0hE2wi...anenceInstitute

#23 by Thomas Peters , Mon Mar 27, 2023 4:28 pm

I'm not sure anyone can prove whether or not a film that got VS was mal-processed to begin with. Perhap what I've read was wrong. VS can take a long time to manifest itself; that's why it took so long to discover. As I mentioned, my Kodak book on film care from 1983 does not mention VS at all.

It seems like the people trying (emphasis on trying) to sell VS films are hobbyists, so to speak. They run the films through their projectors, and comment how great it ran despite the VS.

I agree, these sellers are hoping that Barnum was right.

#24 by Tom Photiou , Mon Mar 27, 2023 10:22 pm

I guess that as long as they state the film has VS it's then up to others if they wish to buy. Personally, VS is for the bin, I cant imagine any serious collector paying for them.

#25 by Thomas Peters , Mon Mar 27, 2023 11:00 pm

Wenn Sie hier auf Links zu eBay klicken und einen Kauf tätigen, kann dies dazu führen, dass diese Website eine Provision erhält.

For every seller that states VS or vinegar smell, there are probably 10 who don't.
I've been lucky. Other than the one I previously mentioned above, I haven't received any.
Not just films, but it's amazing what people try to sell on eBay.

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