Robin Hood Prince of Thieves 4 x 1600ft Flat Part 1 & 2

#1 by Tom Photiou , Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:14 pm

Well, this was a film i always wanted on scope super 8 but they were way over priced for me, especially if it wasn't pre stripe stock. This is the review for parts 1 & 2, parts 3 and 4 will be viewed Sunday. I am checking it out on my own before the family view it with me later next week.
Anyway, i have recieved this one from DG and i have to say the actual print quality is A1, stunning image and colours on LPP polyester stock. The only disappointment is that there is a fair bit of emulsion scratching which i wasn't expecting to be so prominent, so far the worst is on reel one, second half. I have given it a second clean up hoping to at least try and reduce it, a shame as the print is absolutely stonking. Reel two also has a very thin line which flickers on and off throughout most of the first half but isn't too bad, but it is there.
Being a flat version has not in anyway spoilt this, like Dances with wolves there is NO panning and scanning at all. In fact, if you didn't know this was originally scope you would not have any idea.


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RE: Robin Hood Prince of Thieves 4 x 1600ft Flat Part 1 & 2

#2 by Mats Abelli , Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:50 pm

Stunning colours and a great film. Maybe Filmguard will take care of the stripes.


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RE: Robin Hood Prince of Thieves 4 x 1600ft Flat Part 1 & 2

#3 by Robert Crewdson ( deleted ) , Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:58 pm

Great images, looks good in flat. I recognise some of the British actors.



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RE: Robin Hood Prince of Thieves 4 x 1600ft Flat Part 1 & 2

#4 by Tom Photiou , Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:09 am

i wish you could see how Sharpe it is. such a shame about the green lines, as always i gave it a light clean with filmguard, then i reverse clean with a fresh clean cotton hanky to take off the excess, after the viewing of the two parts i gave it another clean with filmguard but did not remove any so will see if this has improved it.


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RE: Robin Hood Prince of Thieves 4 x 1600ft Flat Part 1 & 2

#5 by Andrew Woodcock ( deleted ) , Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:27 am

It's a lovely print Tom, razor sharp and fabulous rich colour and contrast.
Some emulsion scratching these days does generally have to be tolerated, we just always hope that its never excessive to our own personal tolerance levels.

Mats, where emulsion scratches are concerned, FilmGuard only ever highlights the problem further if anything.
Often before a print is cleaned, an emulsion scratch can look pretty much the same as a base side scratch where it is just black or grey in colour. FilmGuard is an extremely effective cleaner as well as lubricant, and therefore cleans within the emulsion and base side scratches too.

On base side scratches, this has the effect of eliminating them when viewed through a projector, but for an emulsion scratch it will simply clean it and turn it bright green!

Often if you realize this early enough, it can turn out to be a better option NOT to clean the bad section with the emulsion scratches using FilmGuard once you know for sure that they are not base scratches.
It can often look better and less distracting just viewing such a scratch in black or grey as opposed to stark bright green.


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RE: Robin Hood Prince of Thieves 4 x 1600ft Flat Part 1 & 2

#6 by Tom Photiou , Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:15 am

BALLS!! Thats something i did not know about filmguard.


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RE: Robin Hood Prince of Thieves 4 x 1600ft Flat Part 1 & 2

#7 by Robert Crewdson ( deleted ) , Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:28 pm

That makes sense with any cleaner I would think Andrew. I ended up with about 3 features that have an emulsion scratch; I don't know what anyone used on them if anything, before I got them. I do know that one wasn't treated with filmguard, and the scratch is very noticeable. Every time before I set up the projector I clean the gate with a soft cloth, and also vacuum where the film channel is.



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RE: Robin Hood Prince of Thieves 4 x 1600ft Flat Part 1 & 2

#8 by David Ollerearnshaw , Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:45 pm

Is that the man who should say Robins ALIVE! in image 6. Its a good job Alan Rickman was in the film though. Does look nice print. Wish 2.22 was still available too that was good for making scratches less visible.


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RE: Robin Hood Prince of Thieves 4 x 1600ft Flat Part 1 & 2

#9 by Tom Photiou , Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:57 pm

It is David, brian Blessed was killed off in this too early. He would have made a great fyer tuck.
I will see what reels 3 and 4 are like Sunday evening and add it to this review.


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RE: Robin Hood Prince of Thieves 4 x 1600ft Flat Part 1 & 2

#10 by Colin Fish , Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:58 pm

Looks good Tom. I have 3 reels of this on 35mm and its also flat. I remember seeing it at the cinema and it was flat too. Love it when they notice the scar on the cheek. If you go to Carcassonne castle, that's where it was filmed, great place.


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RE: Robin Hood Prince of Thieves 4 x 1600ft Flat Part 1 & 2

#11 by Tom Photiou , Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:25 pm

Thank you Colin, i am praying that reels 3 and 4 are ok, if they have to many green scratches i may have to re consider keeping it. The print is fantastic though, such a shame but i will wait and see, i was pleased to see that there is no panning and scanning at all so being flat is no problem at all.


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RE: Robin Hood Prince of Thieves 4 x 1600ft Flat Part 1 & 2

#12 by Andrew Woodcock ( deleted ) , Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:22 pm

Going back your post earlier there Robert, while for sure poor projector hygiene and cleanliness can play its part in unwanted emulsion scratches, I don't believe hygiene and cleanliness alone can stop this from happening in all cases.

A lot of damage can easily be done just by dropping loops and general projector set up quite besides other factors such as wear etc.

Super 8mm LPP prints are very easily damaged if even the slightest irregularities exist in the machines set up, no matter how clean, nor what is used to protect the film in run.
It can begin from the very moment they are threaded if all isn't quite right.
Often the beginning of films are some of the worse sections on the film for wear I've found.
The beginning, after a splice and towards the end of a reel if there are issues with misalignment or tension irregularities due to heavy large spools etc etc, these are the most prevalent times for scratches in my experiences of buying only used prints 99.9% of the time, this time around in the hobby.

I agree though Robert, that I'm sure most cleaners of film would have the effect of only ever highlighting an emulsion scratch even if they are able to work absolute miracles on minor base scratches during projection.


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RE: Robin Hood Prince of Thieves 4 x 1600ft Flat Part 1 & 2

#13 by Robert Crewdson ( deleted ) , Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:46 pm

Maybe i've been extra fortunate Andrew, but in 45 years of running my films, I haven't had one that I scratched on the emulsion side.



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RE: Robin Hood Prince of Thieves 4 x 1600ft Flat Part 1 & 2

#14 by Andrew Woodcock ( deleted ) , Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:29 am

Then you have been super fortunate Robert!


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RE: Robin Hood Prince of Thieves 4 x 1600ft Flat Part 1 & 2

#15 by Tom Photiou , Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:22 am

Have to say, out of over 550 super 8 films in 40 years only less than half a dozens films had been been scratched by any of our machines. Certainly none have those green lines have been put on by any of our projectors. Having said that, these 16s are shown all over the place and probably on dozens of projectors. This particular one is so unfortunate.
It would be this one to, its the one title i really wanted.
Tonight's decision night. Fingers crossed for two perfect reels. This would make it bearable.


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RE: Robin Hood Prince of Thieves 4 x 1600ft Flat Part 1 & 2

#16 by Andrew Woodcock ( deleted ) , Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:25 pm

That's incredible Tom!

I've had dozens of prints scratched over the years and very very seldom do I receive any full length ones that are completely flawless so far as an odd emulsion scratch is concerned, even if it only lasts seconds.


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RE: Robin Hood Prince of Thieves 4 x 1600ft Flat Part 1 & 2

#17 by Robert Crewdson ( deleted ) , Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:49 pm

Maybe it has something to do with the make or model of projector. I know you said you had issues with your Eumig Andrew, but they have a good reputation. I only have the one Super 8 projector, and that's a Eumig 810D, 42 years old and still working; only had to replace the sound head, because it comes into contact with the film, even when running silent movies. I think they improved on that on the later models.



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RE: Robin Hood Prince of Thieves 4 x 1600ft Flat Part 1 & 2

#18 by Andrew Woodcock ( deleted ) , Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:12 pm

I've had quite a few projectors first time and second time around that were far from trustworthy.
The only machine I had first time around in the hobby that I implicitly trusted was my Agfa LS2.
All others, from my earliest Cinerex Dual Gauge silent projector, had to be watched at all times, very very carefully.

If you've only had one, from new, it's probably pretty hard to get your head around just how much diversity there is among machines at times.

Each should come with its own rule book on the DO's and DON'T s.

Much changes also in Super8mm land, once you mount films to larger and larger spools.
Then, there are even more things to monitor!


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RE: Robin Hood Prince of Thieves 4 x 1600ft Flat Part 1 & 2

#19 by Robert Crewdson ( deleted ) , Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:22 pm

Hi Andrew, I started off with a silent Hanimex. I had no instruction manual, no one to tell me how to look after it. As a result, I never cleaned the gate. I did get some light marks on a film, then through Movie Maker I leaned about 2.22, which covered up the marks. I've never had any issues with the Eumig though.



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RE: Robin Hood Prince of Thieves 4 x 1600ft Flat Part 1 & 2

#20 by Andrew Woodcock ( deleted ) , Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:23 pm

You've been very fortunate then Robert.

Many of the large spooled machines were used on an almost industrial scale at times.
Some even in Soho!

When you used to buy an ex police car, it always came with improved heavy duty clutch due to the kind of service it underwent.
That same logic never found its way to Super 8mm machinery by and large, unfortunately.


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RE: Robin Hood Prince of Thieves 4 x 1600ft Flat Part 1 & 2

#21 by Tom Photiou , Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:36 pm

Hey Andy, i may not have explained myself too clearly there, i meant my own projectors have only put a few light lines to the far right, a lot of our films have marks of some descriptions, usually the infamous right hand black lines, or the odd emulsion scratch but these have always been done by previous owners.
You may recall this story before, but when our local photographic shop loaned us a new B & H filmosonic, (due the Eumig 810d going back to Johnson's of Hendon under warranty for the umpteenth time), we took it home and the first film i put on was a brand new print of Deranns 400 ft version of Texas Chainsaw, it went through once, no problem, upon second viewing there was a whopping great thick green scratch right up the middle of the picture.
Be got no reimbursement for that i i never ever touch an 8mm B & H again and nor would i now.
This LPP thing is a funny one, great image quality and no fade, but the price is the ease of which it seems to scratch on the emulsion.

Anyway ,
REELS 3 & 4,
Well, that darn green line is still there but not as big, its a weird one as it pulses on and off, its hard to get an image due to fact its on/off/on/off and on the images here you can see it on some of them to the centre right. However, if you look carefully you can see it there, A really great movie and i would like to say that i have spoken to Mr Guest and we have come to a satisfactory arrangement which results in me keeping this one. So Thank you David.
Another of my all time favourites on 16, (i just wish so much it didn't have these marks but i guess its this or nothing now). The only one i would really like to add to my almost full collection should it become available is The Untouchables with Kevin Costner and Robert DeNiro and preferably in scope but flat is fine.


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RE: Robin Hood Prince of Thieves 4 x 1600ft Flat Part 1 & 2

#22 by Andrew Woodcock ( deleted ) , Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:41 pm

I wouldn't or couldn't part with such a lovely print Tom, even if it does have a few marks here and there.

I agree regarding LPP Tom.
It's like tissue paper at times on the emulsion side but beautiful to look at when all is perfect.


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RE: Robin Hood Prince of Thieves 4 x 1600ft Flat Part 1 & 2

#23 by Dave Guest , Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:58 pm

I am glad youre happy with it tom I always will refund anyone who buys a film or sort something out .trouble is lpp seems to scratch more than other film stock and its always a green scratch I spoke to some one many years ago lpp film and the green scratches he said he had a print once and coloured the green scratch with a felt tip pen using a different colour my reply was oh and that all I said



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RE: Robin Hood Prince of Thieves 4 x 1600ft Flat Part 1 & 2

#24 by Tom Photiou , Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:00 pm

Blimy, really? A felt pen?
Thanks again.


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RE: Robin Hood Prince of Thieves 4 x 1600ft Flat Part 1 & 2

#25 by Andrew Woodcock ( deleted ) , Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:06 pm

I have heard of people using graphite pencils to try to "ease" the appearance of stark green lines.
I've never tried it myself though.
It would be really difficult on Super 8 film but you may stand a better chance on 16mm and then I'd imagine it to be fairly easy albeit a somewhat tedious process, by the time you get to 35mm.

https://www.staples.co.uk/black-chinagra.../297756982.html

This advertisement here even states photographic film as one of its uses in the description.

It really is amazing just how many unknown emulsion scratches can be exposed by trying to eliminate base side scratches prior to a run.
If you are unsure what type of scratches your film contains, it may often be best policy not to bother overly cleaning the print if it is fairly clean anyhow aside from a few fairly innocuous black thin tramlines here and there.
Much depends on how smooth it runs through the gate to begin with, I find.

Many emulsion scratches can manifest themselves in the intermittent manner you speak of earlier Tom.
It usually indicates the film loops or another part of the film within its path is not consistent in shape or torque or may be slapping against a stationary part of the guides etc etc.
Even an eccentric roller etc can lead to these kind of emulsion scratches drifting in and out throughout.

On a lovely running well balanced and well set up machine, the loops should appear almost stationary at all times in their appearance just from a casual eye perspective, as should the sprocket holes feeding into the gate.


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