Recently, we have been reading through all the threads on here, and also on other forums and websites, regarding recent new releases. We would like to think the number of recent releases or at least, announcements of forthcoming releases on super 8 are at a rate that hasn't been seen in years, we would like to think that we have tried our best in our way to help collectors get titles they didn't think they could. I know I like them, and I know others do to. The first release met with great enthusiasm.

This is a very unique hobby and as you all know, it isn't cheap. We know the titles released aren't for everyone, but then that will always be the case no matter what is put out. Recently, I appeared to have inadvertently caused a bit of upset when someone took what was said out of context on a thread about the new JP theatrical release, it was nothing more than a bit of my dry humor taken the wrong way, however, I got a lot of crap for that. Forums and other websites are becoming places of less discussion, but more put downs or people taking offence at everything. Where are so many of the members gone that use to join in, I think we always enjoyed it more when there were other names popping in.

Anyway, that's that, it is with sadness that at present time, we have heard that new titles will be on hold on until the backlog of orders is fulfilled and some more positive support is shown. Unfortunately, it relies on several different people in multiple countries to get things done, they are not always done the way they should be done as some of you know, with the vertical marks on a few prints. These were rejected and this added to the backlog as people had to wait for a replacement. (no one should get second rate prints), as well as this, some people have had a bit of a dig about the time taken to get prints, Alberto's machine required a new part, that was something no one could have seen coming, you should recall that it was always stated that new orders would take several months. No one can be expected to keep a stock of titles as sales can be a bit slow to say the least. This is despite the fact that well over 200 people said they would like to see new releases, yet only a fraction (10%) actually bought. A lot of investment has been put into these films as well as a lot of time, in the early days there was great feedback but recently all that is seen are knockbacks. It is the likes of a very few people who are trying their best to keep this hobby going, yet some out there seem to want to bring those few down. I'd like to know why that is, at the end of the day if a title isn't for you, that's fine. For now, it looks as though new titles will go on hold. However, those who want to see new releases, lets really see a show of support here and now otherwise, that'll be it.

For those who are no longer collectors of super 8, why are you even here? Don't bother the good people in this hobby with your pointless put downs.
And that also goes for the Facebook groups that supposedly are about this hobby.

You can join us and build a NEW world of super 8mm treasures ,
or be reduced to obliteration in the old , red , faded scratched super 8mm world

The decision rests with you.

Sincerely Yours,
Dave Baker

David,
While i have bought JP, it is sad to hear that your getting these kind of knockbacks. In the early days of the new releases, reading the other channel in particular, i thought you were going to get well over 100 orders. I'll be the first one to hold my hand up to say that unfortunately, its too expensive for me to buy all of them, but i went out to buy JP as the first one in the series is by far the best, the edit is very good and the sound definatly the best i have heard on super 8. I now really do get why some of the collectors do re-record their films now.
I hope those involved who release these films get enough support to keep them coming.
I know where your coming from regarding people taking offence when it wasn't intended, it starts off as an innocent line and ends up in all sorts of problems, look at me
I guess forums and websites can be both great places of information, (look at Phil Murat's recent items) and discussion, while also sometimes moving into slightly darker places, many of us sometimes guilty of it.
I hope the sales pick up and new titles can continue, it'll be interesting to see what transpires.
As for those non collectors who like poke a nose in, then try to sabotage, weirdos!!!

One thing i suppose we all have to watch out for now, is with all the awful problems going on in parts of the world, the prices of the raw materials dont go up and up like everything else is. I did read a thread Lee put up a few months ago that raw film material was going up by 20%, can you confirm that Dave? That kind of percentage, and possibly more to come, could really put a damper on an already expensive product. One to be careful of i guess.

Sadly David some can't put there money where there mouth is, and that don't bode well for sales. I did look through your recent list, but did i miss the boat with "the curse of the werewolf" ?, would still have a copy of that from you. I would like to see what are the most popular suggestions from forum members and how that equates to actual films made on super 8 ?. Is there a way of improving lead time, i have sent several emails to andec in the past with no answer what so ever, not great customer service, especially if , like you, you are keeping them from closing the doors to this line of business, i would hope they treated you much better in all respects .........

Good point Paul, if the makers arnt replying to enquiries, that would put many people off.
I dont know much about Andec, but is that really the only labs left in world doing this business?
I suppose we ought to be saying, who really thought that any new releases would be announced 2020 onward? I for one didn't think so, but the fact that so many titles have been released is pretty darn good. If i were a rich man??????
For me, being honest here, the items on offer on 16mm is where we have invested our super 8 sales cash. Jurassic park was the exception and a few trailers. But at the end of the day, if the sales arnt there, or worse, if someone on facebook, (i did see that) wants to scupper everything, then its only the collectors that suffer.

Larry Arpin did come up with a good idea, to whom releases new prints, perhaps find out which of the titles proposed gains the most support before any investment is made on a title.
Having said that, if as you say, over 200 said yes they would buy, but only 10% or less applied, then its easy to see how it can go wrong, in this case, imagine ordering 40 for stock on the pretence of people saying yes please, and only selling 20!!
I suppose another outlet, if the forums and facebook arnt so supportive, is ebay with a buy it now only price. It certainly has the biggest customer base. Forums are fine but the percentage of people taking part is tiny compared to the amount of members.

It's a difficult one with releases, as many have said you can't please everyone, the latest offering is something of a cult film and must have very few takers, Jurassic Park has I think sold the most which I think shows what sort of releases collectors want, I was surprised at Jaws as most collectors would already have a copy but hope it sold well, I think it's fair to say that everyone who loves film and the hobby takes there hat off to you for all your efforts, it really is amazing what your doing, but if you wanted more investment and sales I'd say its important to ask what collectors want first and get more of a commitment from those who show interest, Mark

These suggestions are very helpful. I will add my two cents here. First, despite the extended delays in getting quality prints to those who have ordered them, I have no concerns about the integrity and honesty of Dave Baker as the delays have not been on his part. We all know the details about ANDEC's issues, as well as Alberto's magnetic striping machine breakdown. Yes, it sucks to wait so many months, but at least there is zero concerns that we are being ripped-off. The prints will be delivered.

It is truly sad that more film collectors are not able to order a copy of one of Dave's titles. I do understand that cost becomes an issue for many of us which limits what we can all buy. However, it is a big plus that the cost of a print of JP, or JAWS is in fact known and fixed at the time of ordering. This differs from ebay where film prices often head WAY north of what our individual budgets allow due to bidding. Given the fixed price of Dave's prints, at least we can save, budget, and even sell off an existing film or two in our collection to fund a future Dave Films' purchase.

I agree it is wise for Dave Films' to hit the pause button on new offerings until the backlog of orders is fully cleared. In the future, maybe it makes sense for Dave to request a 'deposit' for a print. If there are enough 'deposits' to warrant the creation of a 16mm negative, then the project proceeds, but if not the title is cancelled and another choice is offered up.

One of the biggest investments in a new Super 8 release is the creation of the 16mm negative. Film purists want to see 'film to film' releases. Ideally, this is what we would all prefer. But personally speaking, I would have NO PROBLEM with a digital to Super 8 print. If this was possible, I am thinking the per print price would be reduced, perhaps considerably. This would make a print more affordable to even more collectors...something to consider...what do others here think?

Finally, there are an awful lot of negative comments across various forums and FB about the cost, or the quality, or whatever of these new titles. What is really sad: The majority of these negative comments are being made by people that DO NOT EVEN BUY any of these films! Really, it makes no sense for any of us to waste our time on comments made by someone who hasn't even bought one of these prints...

Well put Greg, that just sums it up perfectly, Mark

Hi Dave,
I know this is not the right place but Impossible to post this picture in "Private Messages" :



Hope this will be helpfull.

Philippe

Greg, you said,
" I am thinking the per print price would be reduced, perhaps considerably. This would make a print more affordable to even more collectors...something to consider...what do others here think"?
I also agree with you on this 100%, obviously a film source will always be preferred, BUT, if the cost of prints could be reduced by, (for argument's sake) 20-30% it could make a big difference to the numbers sold. As long as the digital source is either Blu ray or 4/8k it should look fine.
I will also agree that putting a hold on everything until all orders are fulfilled would be a wise move otherwise everything will pile up.
Maybe also try and find a source that uses less people involved in the process, i.e. Germany to print, Italy for striping, USA for sound recording + shipping out to end user. Three lots of shipping from country to country must be a fair amount on the end price. One source will obviously cut the time for delivery dramatically,
As i understand it, to produce a new release involving real film with negatives made is a grand per 200ft, so 3000 for a 600ft. All cost cutting is what will make a huge difference.

Phillippe , thanks for you help , I got it fixed !!

I think the new releases have been amazing and not something I thought I would ever see again! Please do carry on with things

I can see there are significant blockers to more sales some of which have already been pointed out.

1) Price - Whilst I believe Dave's digests are good value for money, film is most certainly not a cheap medium and is therefore beyond the reach of many collectors. Personally I can only afford the occasional new print
2) Limited suppliers - With pretty much just one processing lab in Germany and one stripping lab in Italy there is little competition out there to drive down prices, which is no surprise when there is little demand from the market. Thankfully the prices from these suppliers appear relatively OK
3) Economies of scale - With no financial backer ordering a run of 100 prints at a time which would reduced costs, each customer purchase has to be made to order so there are no savings to be had
4) Transport costs - Each print is very well travelled. Processing in Germany, Striping in Italy, Quality checking in Miami, Dubbing somewhere else, before finally making it's way to the customer. Pure postal costs must account for a fair wedge of cash
5) Stock - Due to the prohibitive costs risk of holding stock, some potential customers will never get round to ordering a digest because they don't want to wait whereas they might be tempted if they could have the digest in their hands the day after ordering it.
6) Distribution/Marketing - As far as I can tell, most of the marketing is via forums, email lists, and subscribers of super 8 hobby publications, so exposure may be limited and has seen many people show an interest but fail to stump up the cash when it comes down to it (and plenty of bitching from some by the sound of it). Expanding to ebay and mainstream publications may provide increased orders however that means you would need to hold stock.....
7) Source material - None of this can be done without Dave having to buy the source material and edit it which is costly and time consuming. A digital source might make things easier but I doubt it will reduce costs significantly enough and may remove some of the 'magic' for both Dave and the collectors

So, lots of issues raised and no solutions offered - fat lot of use I am

But its all good feedback for Dave which is what he needs to be able to go forward

I had a light bulb moment last night, what if the new prints were optical sound instead of magnetic sound, would really matter that much if the prints were mono all be it very good mono sound. Reading some of the threads about airline prints and there obvious use, no one complained on the long haul flights with these prints running again and again about the lack of stereo sound. I'm not sure how many of the prints sold are to people without a stereo projector, i have stereo machines but no real stereo prints and its of no major concern to me, and if it were possible, the cost maybe reduced due to no globe trotting by the films for quality checks, it could be done under one banner, just a thought, although i'm not sure if ti could be done now, but comments tell me it was done in the past...................

its a good idea Paul but i'm guessing that very few collectors have an 8mm projector with optical sound. My own Elmo had its optical sound sorted so many times, in the end i got rid of the few optical prints i had, (they were edited for a general audience anyway), and had the optical side of the HD disabled. It caused a few problems over the years and wasn't worth the expense and hassle for a few films in the collection. Interesting ides though mate.

I don't think optical sound super 8 has been available for a number of years now, nice thought though ,Mark

You also have to take into account that you have to have another negative made for the optical track, which was fine back in the day when selling hundreds of prints, but today!

I'll come into this conversation from my own perspective:
Working with film currently, I do know how expensive it is. Kodak film stock pricing increased by 10% at the beginning of February. Some titles have interest, but in the end price is key. If this is something you do wish to continue then you will need to come to terms with it. I have very few super 8 prints as I almost exclusively run 16mm. I do not buy new prints, only what is out there currently and I prefer features over digests and have my own stance. PLUS I have a family and priorities.

There are collectors and then COLLECTORS. Many "collectors" need/want bang for the buck. Unless they are truly attached to a certain title, they won't buy it unless they are one of those COLLECTORS that has to have EVERYTHING.

I have stopped collecting almost entirely. I have what I enjoy watching and am still looking out for titles I'd like to have. Those are the only ones I'll end up obtaining. Money is tight for just about everyone