Hey guys and gals,

So I learned the extremely hard and difficult way that running a full feature large film is much different than a 15 minute educational short. I was enjoying a film last night (beautiful image good sound) no issues, but being new to this I didn't pay any mind to the take up reel after building false confidence with shorter films. By the end of the film the take up reel was a overlapping twisted sagging balled up mess! I attempted to slowly weave through the birds nest that was my film and manually rewind it back onto the reel, multiple times the film curled up so bad it took a long time to uncurl, the end result my film tore in two places, I found a couple sprockets also torn, and the film looks bent, crumpled, and wrapped along multiple stretches.

First question, what is the proper procedure during projector when the film isn't sitting tightly on the take up reel and starts to overlap oddly and bulk up and fall off?

Second question, anyone state side offer service for an attempted repair of this film? Pretty frustrated by my ignorance at the moment and I hope this film can be saved...

Thanks.

Had the take up reel stopped turning?. If a film is stored a long time in a vertical position instead of horizontal it can sag when you rewind i, if you rewind on a projector; you need to use a pair of rewinders to wind it tightly. I have never experienced that problem when running the film through the projector.. I think every serious collector should own a Perf-fix machine, so you can repair the torn perfs instead of cutting out the frames.

Robert,

Thanks for the reply. The take up reel did not stop turning at least it did not appear to stop by the end of the picture it was still turning but just a big mess.

I would not consider myself prepared or knowledgeable enough to undertake the splice and sprocket repairs, I know if I continue in this hobby I will need to learn these skills and purchase the tools to repair things, at the moment I was just wondering if there is anyone out there that offers a service?

I purchased the film from someone who said they had been stored vertically (as they said that was proper)

Also a little concerned this will continue to happen if I project long films...maybe its the speed of the projector? Or the films are warped and unplayable or need special attention while projecting?

Are films salvageable when bent? Thanks!

I have stored Super 8 vertically, as this was how we used to see them in the shops, and there was no one to say different. All my 16mm play OK, but at least two have to be wound back using bench rewinders otherwise the film sags and I can't get it back on the spool. Maybe over a period if the film is tightly wound, and stored flat, it might help. I once had a film that bunched up in the machine, when I took it out it was like a concertina; I re-lubricated it and wound it tightly, after a few days I checked it out and it was perfectly flat.

You should store all your 16mm features flat. Maybe one of our older members can tell you if this will cure your problem.

Some 16mm films do tend to warp and will cause problems with their take-up.
The solution is to twist the film as it leaves the projector before you secure it to the take-up spool. This way the film will wind tightly.

Michael,

I just had a similar thing happen to me....The print was quite twisted--likely due to VS (vinegar syndrome). It did not go onto the take up reel tightly and ended up egg-shaped. What Maurice indicated about twisting the film once is definitely worth a try. Most prints will NOT have this loose problem on the take up reel. Of the several hundred I have, maybe 3-4 are like that. Try and avoid buying any prints that do not lay flat, as quite often that is a sign of a print that has some level of VS decay.

You should for sure have a 16mm splicer. The best, in my opinion are the Catozzo brand 16mm splicers which use rolls of special clear tape (not Scotch or cellophane tape) to attach leader to film or film to film. These are also the most expensive--approximately $150-200. A far cheaper option is the Kodak splicer kit which uses short, pre-cut and already-perforated tapes. This splicer can be found for $20 or less on ebay or even on shopgoodwill.com (at times). The little tapes are available on ebay or at https://www.urbanskifilm.com/. My first splicer was this cheapo Kodak splicer....it is a little bit of a pain to use, but works. There are many other splicers available some use cement to "glue" the film together. I have never used that type myself.

As for Perf-fix, I would say that is an eventual step to consider if you really get serious about the hobby. They are not widely available for sale. If the film print has perf damage it should be avoided or returned if this damage was not disclosed on the ebay listing or by the seller.

Also, don't worry---these are some of the lessons you will learn as you gain more experience in the hobby. Many or all of us have run into the same or other things along the way. There are also some 16mm Facebook groups that might be of interest to you to check out as a supplement to our forum here.

A further tip with the film twisting that I mentioned above.
Most 16mm features are on 1600ft spools so use a 2000ft spool for the take-up, or, even better, a 2200ft take-up spool.
These longer spools will give a certain peace of mind.

I guess I have a lot of tools to buy if I intend to continue projecting films...Thanks everyone.

Maurice gave a great tip there Michael with regard twisting the film as it leaves the projector, we have some great experienced collectors on here that will give some great advice, glad you are enjoying watching reel film.

You definitely need the splicer Greg recommended, a set of 16mm rewinds, and some film lubricant/cleaner. That's the most important. It's worth the outlay. You were just unlucky with your first feature, but it may not happen again.

Thanks guys helps knowing theres people who have the experience and are willing to share their knowledge.

This feature reeks of vinegar, but did not appear misshapen or deformed prior to this incident.

I just received some AD strips I will place in the can to confirm or deny my sense if smell ha. I guess I wont feel as bad for my bad luck or operator error if the film was diseased. Either way I intend to try my hand at repair as it seems to be a vital skill in collecting films.

While avoiding redundancy and knowing none of you have seen the current state, what steps would you say are necessary to attempt a repair?

The two tears are slanted and theres only 2 sprocket tears, also the film get bent up. Would I attempt to splice first? Then lubricate and tightly rewind manually on a rewinder and then store for some time and check out the condition at a later time?

My wife says I need more discipline and my too use to DVDs and streaming! (Ouch!) She says stick to baseball cards and 45s, repairs on my Jukebox have never had me this bent out of shape ha!

Anyhow thanks again guys this community has been very helpful and I appreciate it, enjoy your weekends!

I figure even if the film comes back positive for VS via AD strips, there is still knowledge to be gained by attempting my hand at splicing and lubricating it to try and recover it.

Staying positive!

Get the Cattazo splicer Greg mentioned . They are a bit dear, but the best, and built to last. The tape is cheap to buy after. It might be possible to join the two ends together, and not notice the join on screen. You could get a pack of Kodak Presstapes to stick over the damaged perfs. Not sure it will work, but Larry Urbanski says it will. The alternative is to cut out the damaged frames. Film running at 24 frames per second, you may not notice the cut. I prefer to save every frame if I can. If you find your film has V.S. it won't matter much. The practice will be good for you.

Even though some of us have been in the hobby a long time, we still learn from time to time. It's a great hobby Michael, don't give up on it.

Michael,

The damage to the film may result in your needing to remove a short section of the film. Of course this would result in what is called a 'jump splice', or depending on the length of damage 'missing content'. A jump splice would be a noticeable 'hiccup' or disruption to the viewing and audio of the film. These are not desirable. If this was NOT an expensive print or extremely rare, then it may be an opportunity to use it as a guinea pig for learning purposes where you aren't concerned with the outcome of your experiments.

The Catozzo splicer is great for several reasons. One is that it makes the splice on the line between the individual frames of the film. The cheapo Kodak Presstape splicer does not and leaves an odd shaped splice. The Catozzo also has a nice cutter to properly cut the film at the correct spot for the splice.
Here is a youtube video of a Ciro 16mm splicer in action (essentially the same as the Catozzo):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzhST6WdIk0

If the film is badly 'accordioned' or crumpled it may fail to go thru the projector. I am not sure if there is a solution other than removal of the damaged section, but other members here may have ideas.

Once you start to get a handle on things, it is a very fun and addicting hobby....keep at it!

Just reading your thread Michael, i think we've all been there when that take up reel either stops or overfills. It's happened to the best of collectors. (many times on 8mm as well).
It's one of the reasons i always sit next to the projector and several times through the film, glance back to make sure everything's ok. It happened to me in the early days of 16 where during a film, for no apparent reason, the take up stopped after it was two thirds full, luckily i spotted it before too much film had stating unravelling. In my case at that time, the take up belt simply snapped. Well worn, or old belts can often get slack and struggle when the take up gets heavier as it fills.

I just thought I’d share this to conclude my post.

The film which is a great picture, ‘The Harder They Fall’ was the one that did not sit properly on my take up reel and twisted like crazy. After AD-Strip test it came back as highest level of VS.

My other films, Panic in the Streets and Forbidden came back between 0-1 which the guide states is acceptable.

I have attached the photos of the films in the cans with the AD strips. I guess I now know “your nose does not lie” vinegar is vinegar. I hope the take up reel issue was due to this film being in such awful shape, I am a little nervous to project another full feature but will do it while watching the projector like a hawk.

As for The Harder They Fall, I guess its a $300 piece of trash now.

I am sorry your film is a write off; $300 is a lot to pay, even if the film was in top condition. Some people complain about Ebay, but at least you are protected against something like this. They give you 6 months to put in a claim. I hope the other features run through without any trouble.

Being new to his hobby I felt so nostalgic to the idea of watching something like "The Harder They Fall" on film being projected and getting my kids to sit around and watch it with me....tough to gauge prices as a new guy on the block since there only seems to be one copy of something for sale at a time. I seem to find most full feature movies ranging from $65-$200.

Anyhow I am a bit sour on the whole ordeal but determined to stay in the hobby and enjoy some films with the family. I have never tried to use ebay buyer protection, I find lots of people to be honest or maybe I have just gotten lucky until this purchase. Happy I still have some films that aren't diseased!

When things like this happen it's enough to put ypu off, especially as you are new to the hobby, but don't let it. Watching your own print on a big screen, beats any other way of watching movies. Hopefully, your next viewing will run smoothly. We are always here if you have any questions. I agree that most Ebay sellers are honest, any problems I have had have been non film related. You are automatically protected by Ebay and Paypal. There is usually only one copy of each title at any one time; some titles turn up fairly regularly, others take years before you see another.

You have all been very helpful. The film and collector community has be nothing but a pleasure to communicate with. I just got unlucky. I will enjoy showing a film this upcoming weekend. Thanks!

Michael, most of us have been collectors for donkey's years, we have Filmguard running through our veins, as Maurice said, watching a film on a big screen listening to the projector purring in the background is very special and trust me, once your hooked, your hooked :-)