The three pics are of one of two take up arms I have for my long play.Both seem to work perfectly well except they do get quite hot,not that is an issue.
As you can see there is a small black switch attached to which is a black cable.When the arms are up and working wether attached to the fumeo or an independent supply for other machines,this switch plays no part in anything which ever direction I place the switch.Now as it appears to do nothing no problem but anybody got any idea why it's there?or what's it for?
As I say it seems to have no function maybe in its former use somewhere someone had use of it,but curiosity has got the better of me so I am open to suggestions of what it is.It could just be an on/off switch.
Anyway only one know/idea???? Thanks📽📽

Is it not simply an on/off switch for the motor Gwyn?

Thanks Andrew,I admit that was always my thought but it does not do anything maybe the wiring has been reworked to make it no use anymore ,as I say it appears to do nothing,it was me being curios.Thanks📽📽

The wires are going to the motor - perhaps the switch increases the torque when you have very large, full, reels to take up ?

Ian

Has it something to do with rewind?

Thanks Ian/Hugh,I'm inclined to go with Ian's thought as if it was rewind I would have thought it would have done it before now.
I'm thinking I'm going to take one of the arms apart and see,let's hope I can put it back together.Thanks to both.📽📽

Ian if the switch were to adjust the torque, it would be a variable resistor rather than a switch and it would be attached to a motor controlling circuit board of some kind.

It can be a rewind switch but again would need to be linked to a board of some kind.

I really can only see this being a simple power isolating rocker switch that has somehow become detached from the circuit or the contacts have worn out over the years.

Presumably there must be a way of varying of the speed / torque Gwyn?
I haven't seen a long play unit without some kind of control.
Are there any other knobs or switches etc?

Zitat

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Ian if the switch were to adjust the torque, it would be a variable resistor rather than a switch and it would be attached to a motor controlling circuit board of some kind.

It can be a rewind switch but again would need to be linked to a board of some kind.

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If it was simple on/off switch, then one wire would come from the bottom, and one from the motor ? As two wires are coming down from the motor, suggests it may not be on/off ? Rather from the coil windings ? If it is a torque motor there will be a group of wires going to induction coil windings, not brushes. So the switch may have some other function ? It does not look like the switch has no function or is broken.

I am curious toknow what Gwyn discovers when examining the motor.

Ian

Wow a real bowl of confusion there Ian???

Not sure what is meant by the term" a torque motor"?

A switch may be double pole double throw (DPDT) so this may explain why both cables from the motor join to the switch.

For a long play unit, it is extremely unlikely the motor can or will be induction motor.
You simply wouldn't gain any control over it without using an expensive inverter.

It almost certainly will be a D.C. motor with brushes and an armature linking it then with a simple motor control circuit board, typically then through an isolating switch and a rewind switch plus some kind of potentiometer for varying the speed and torque of the take up reel.

The rewind switch simply places a fixed full voltage from the supply to the motor often bypassing the control circuitry to allow full power when rewinding with these.

Andrew, yes I can alter the torque when the arms power is attached to a separate unit which is not shown,this is when I use the arms on a long play unit designed for any 16 mm machine.
The arms can be attached to my fumeo where there is no means to govern the torque.
During the next week I shall investigate more.
Ian,the switch seems intact and as such working I'll let you know what I find.📽📽

Sorry for my confusion caused Andrew.

I thought Gwyns' motor is brushless, called a 'torque' motor because the take ups can rotate at varying speeds and be held back, or even stopped without overheating and burning out a commutator or carbon brushes ?

The cooling vanes on the motor suggest that the coil windings are on the outside and the motor shaft armature core does not have windings but rotates due to phased magnetic impulses from the outer coil windings ?

It was Acmade of Denham used to call them 'torque' motors on their old Acmiola editing benches. I had to replace bearings on my Bauer 'Synchron' 25 fps projector and it has a motor winding like this.

Ian

Maybe it is mechanically restricted in speed and torque Ian?
I don't know for sure here on Gwyn's model how it is controlled as I've never seen one like it to be honest Ian.

You may well be correct Ian in that all the control is via mechanical clutches but then that perhaps contradicts Gwyn's control unit, especially if it does have a potentiometer in there somewhere?

Who knows?

Certainly all of the Spondon units work on the principle of what I described, but to be fair, this one does look very different to those.

Gentlemen,thank you for your assistance.This morning I took the arm apart and took the wiring out of the arm as best I could.the black wire seems to go nowhere,it does not go to the motor so as such the switch is redundant.there is a taped up connector which may or may not at one time have connected to this switch ,but as one says if it ain't broke don't try fixing it.the motor is a sealed unit so again can't do anything with that.
I have discovered that the arm was made most probably in a town called Cormano in Italy,again it may have something to do with fumeo but non of my fumeo manuals show this arm,althiouth it works perfectly well on the machine.
I did put the name of the switch into the Internet and got a company making automatic milking machines for cows!!
Still taking it apart gave me a chance to clean and tighten the screws etc which were surprisingly loose so all in all worth doing.Maybe someone somewhere will have an answer but for now "let sleeping dogs lie" Thanks again.📽📽

Just from the cluster of cables emerging from your frame there Gwyn, it is impossible to tell how it ought to be wired. Obviously someone somewhere in time has modified this from its original design given you have unconnected cable with insulting tape on it.

As you say,, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" but it would be nice to find out one day how these were intended to work with their switches etc in tact , one day.

Hopefully someone here or on the other forum will speak about one of these units sometime in the future, then I will ask the right questions if indeed it does.

Yes thanks Andrew ,perhaps in the fullness of time someone will know what the cables do.still the am got a clean .Thanks.📽📽

Gwyns' spool arm motor is the same as take-up used on Cinemeccanica. I have had a look at the take up on my Cinemeccanica and it is the same Italian made motor as Gwyn's. There are 4 wires on this going to the motor. When the projector is switched to run, the spool arm motor rotates steadily clockwise and takes up the film. The torque motor adjusts to the fullness slow/fast speed of the reel as the spool fills up. When the intermittent is switched off, the motor remains on keeping the film held back under tension. There is no mechanical clutch or gearing only the torsion generated by the motor. The rotating spool can be grabbed or held back safely without the motor overloading as the impulse is generated by the phases of the coil windings that impulse the armature spindle

There is an auxiliary switch for 'rewind' that sets the motor rapidly anticlockwise for fast rewind. It does seem to rotate faster in rewind mode.

Ian

Ian,as they say "everything comes to those who wait".... Thank you very much for an answer,so the switch is reverse.End of story,but as I rewind my films by hand and not use the rewind on the machines I guess that as the switch is not wired I had not used same ,maybe considered it but thought no more about it.Anyway bottom line is the switch does nothing to alter the way the arm is used,it was out of curiosity that I posted originally.Thanks once again.📽📽📽

Gwyn I am glad that the mystery is resolved. I wish I had a take-up motor like this on my Fumeo 16mm, as the sprung wire belt pulley is worn and is not always up to winding on tightly.

I noticed as you did that these motors get very hot. The cooling vanes had become out of shape on my motor so I have carefully bent them back to shape to assist air cooling. I used an aerosol 'VHT' heat resistant matt black paint to restore the paint finish.

Ian

I thought it would be rewind #5, it couldn't be anything else really, as Fumeo use screws for torque on their projectors, so
it didn't follow they would change it for larger spool arms. There's only two directions it can go in.

Ian thank you for your info I shall double check the fins,maybe over time a couple have come out of shape.but these motors certainly do the job.
Hugh you had it spot on from the start,thanks to all,
Gwyn