RE: BFCC 64 at Ealing on 02,04.2016

#26 by Andrew Woodcock , Mon Apr 04, 2016 10:40 am

Thank you Graham and Ian there, for these wonderfully detailed explanations. What Ian speaks of regarding collectors passing is of course all too true each time one of these events takes place. However it is still very very sad news when we hear news like this, and we hope these people have left a true legacy of wonderful memories in other collectors and dealers minds.

The Sankyo projector there mentioned by Graham with the hi pro fast lens, sounded a real worthwhile bargain to be had by someone or another. As suspected, the reality of the later Super 8mm prints is also all too evident here once again and I suspect Graham has it spot on regarding the sheer power of the e bay sale sadly!


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RE: BFCC 64 at Ealing on 02,04.2016

#27 by Vidar Olavesen , Mon Apr 04, 2016 8:33 pm

Any non-members not seeing the pictures? It should be open, but not sure if there's something wrong, as I got a message about someone not being able to view the pictures? PM admins to let us know, please


 
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RE: BFCC 64 at Ealing on 02,04.2016

#28 by Andrew Woodcock , Mon Apr 04, 2016 9:13 pm

or simply just join us all here.


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RE: BFCC 64 at Ealing on 02,04.2016

#29 by Barry Attwood , Tue Apr 05, 2016 11:31 am

Just got around to reading the posts about Ealing on Saturday, it's taken me a while as I've had a dicky tummy for a couple of days, and could not sit still for too long (if you know what I mean!). It was fun catching up with some old faces, and a few new too. It all ran quite well, i managed to see the first instalment of "True Lies" (£229 for 2x400's, how things have changed!), which was very good, and their is a second 12 minutes (or so) coming soon to finish the story off (although the ending on this reel would suffice, I suppose, if you were saving your pennies). I really like the BFCC's, as Keith always has a variety of subjects and guages (8mm, 16mm and 35mm used on the day), and I'm looking forward to the next one in October.


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RE: BFCC 64 at Ealing on 02,04.2016

#30 by Dave Alligan , Wed Apr 06, 2016 11:55 am

That's incredible price for 2 x 400 (£229) I would hate to think how much a full feature would be now, the cost of super 8 film collecting has gone through the roof, can you honestly say that you could justify paying that sort of money I know that I couldn't.


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RE: BFCC 64 at Ealing on 02,04.2016

#31 by Del Phillipson ( deleted ) , Wed Apr 06, 2016 3:06 pm

It makes some of the second hand prints offered a bargain


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RE: BFCC 64 at Ealing on 02,04.2016

#32 by Tom Photiou , Wed Apr 06, 2016 9:09 pm

Dave, thats a subject i have often bought up many times but i must say if you look at the prices of films in the 70s, for example,a jumbo giant full 400 footer from columbia was £32.95 and the walton 8 reel features ,(if i remember correct), were new at £140. (so 2 x 400 footer back then if they did them would be approx £70). If you factor in inflation and bear in mind these were prices from a 1976 catalogue thats 40 years ago. This was pointed out to me before and when you stop and think it does work out about right. I am sure a mathematician will work it out to the penny but these figures looking at my old catalogues are not far wrong.
Although not in the same league, did anyone buying a house in the 70s wonder how much a house would cost today?
Thats an extreme comparison but i agree its very difficult to explain to any sane person why anyone would pay for a cut down of a film originally running over 2 hours down to 35-40 minutes, why anyone would pay almost £300.00 for it. I always wanted True Lies in scope, i never thought it would be released but i simply want it but cannot justify paying this for that running time. We recently bought a full length super 8 A day to remember, it cost me,(i think) around £50. So how can i ask anyone to justify 300 for cut down. (unless i win the lotto).


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RE: BFCC 64 at Ealing on 02,04.2016

#33 by Hugh Thompson Scott ( deleted ) , Wed Apr 06, 2016 10:09 pm

Well remember Tom, those prices were retail, the 400's from Columbia were retail £30 plus pounds, but were sold at £22.00 for colour
& £13.00 for B/W,I remember paying £80.00 for "One Million Years B.C." from PM Films in '75, prepaid and the agonising wait for release,
it was and still is my favourite film,
but the full retail was about £132.00, which was very expensive then. Derann were selling their Hammer releases in '79 for £49.99, new,
I couldn't buy them quick enough. It isn't always inflation that should be taken into account, remember that people in this country have not had pay rises for a number of years, coupled to the robbery known as Council Tax, the increase in living costs, which have eroded
peoples spending. leaving less & less money for these very expensive cut downs of films, which lets face it, you'll be lucky to recoup.
When the Widescreen Centre were operating, I bought a couple of 50' cassettes of camera film to record my dogs on, including developing, I think it was about £35.00 or so, now it costs £50.00 for 1x50' from Wittner! I'm not a mathematician either, but know
when I'm being ripped off. The German labs can now charge what they want, no competition, it would be nice to see some other lab
start up. I had aspirations of making a cut down of a favoured film, but at these extortionate prices for filmstock, and if it is on their very poor quality acetate, no chance Herman. My solution to paying for one of these films from Phil or Steve, would be to ask if it can be done on a layaway scheme, much like Derann used to do, that way it is paid and hardly missed, a damn shame to miss your film Tom,
an idea like that could be beneficial for the above mentioned two gentlemen, at least they'll have an idea how many prints to order.



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RE: BFCC 64 at Ealing on 02,04.2016

#34 by Del Phillipson ( deleted ) , Wed Apr 06, 2016 10:56 pm

Hugh what a fantastic idea, who remembers the Derann lay away scheme, it certainly allowed me to purchase a few Derann features in the 90's, maybe it's like garlic bread, maybe it's the future, maybe some of the other dealers could think about it on the more pricey prints.


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RE: BFCC 64 at Ealing on 02,04.2016

#35 by Dave Alligan , Thu Apr 07, 2016 10:23 am

Me and Barry Attwood were talking the other day and we both agreed that the German Labs have a world wide monopoly on 8mm prints, you either pay the price or you don't get them at all, but the main ace card they have is that they can do the striping which is the main thing, at the moment they have not mastered the balance stripe so you just get the main stripe so you can only have the sound in mono, as we were saying its a shame that Buck labs don't come back in especially now as their is so few 35mm prints being struck but again it all comes down to the striping.


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RE: BFCC 64 at Ealing on 02,04.2016

#36 by Hugh Thompson Scott ( deleted ) , Thu Apr 07, 2016 12:02 pm

Hi Del, thanks for the vote of confidence, its how I managed to get many new prints, but still could buy from other dealers
too, it was a about £50.00 a month or so, but it wasn't really missed. As Dave rightly says, the German labs now have the monopoly,
the one thing that would bring the price down would be the mass market, joe public, but that has long gone, hence the extremely
high prices, it would be great for a smaller outfit in the UK to offer competition, especially when they lose orders or place S/8 on
the wait list, to be done when everything else has been sorted. As for stripe, didn't they release features for silent running, no
sound stripe on Estar stock, my attitude to that proposition is no thank you, who the hell pays for a full feature with no sound,
Americom here we come.



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RE: BFCC 64 at Ealing on 02,04.2016

#37 by Del Phillipson ( deleted ) , Thu Apr 07, 2016 2:45 pm

Bang on the money Hugh, it is also how I managed to purchase a lot of my features, great idea from Derek that was and totally agree I wouldn't entertain buying a film with no stripe either.


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RE: BFCC 64 at Ealing on 02,04.2016

#38 by Gwyn Morgan , Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:43 pm

Having read through the comments regarding the BFCC am sure all those who attended had a good time and hopefully came away with a bargin or two.
But I must agree with Tom with regard to the purchase of a mini feature such as True Lies for nearly £300 I would not feel right about parting with that type of money,when I could get a full feature second hand or even a full 16mm feature or two for that price.
I too remember the lay a way days and yes it was a great way to obtain that film you always wanted but I do think times have changed and quite frankly the glory days of having a full lenth newish film on super 8 are gone.The money is not there -unless you win the lottery of course.I don't know anyone really young who would have the money or even want to part with that sort of money for a film,they all have far more supposed interesting things to spend money on.
I may be wrong and im sure people will disagree with me but things certainly aint what they used to be!!


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RE: BFCC 64 at Ealing on 02,04.2016

#39 by Vidar Olavesen , Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:48 pm

I do like True Lies, but the price put me off. I wish I could afford the equipment for printing and striping new films. Where did all those machines end up? Derann ones was scrapped from what I understand, but was that the fate of all of them?


 
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RE: BFCC 64 at Ealing on 02,04.2016

#40 by Gwyn Morgan , Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:58 pm

Vidar its like all the "old" machines gone scrapped im sure im not alone but I can still remember seeing two 35mm machines and a long play ,all be it broken, 16mm pedestal machine thrown out to the scrap yard from where I work now to be replaced by the modern digi stuff.
Yes we still have a vic 5 long play for 35mm but few are interested in this format now more of a novelty to most and the youngsters have no idea what you are talking about.Sign of the times.


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RE: BFCC 64 at Ealing on 02,04.2016

#41 by Hugh Thompson Scott ( deleted ) , Thu Apr 07, 2016 9:13 pm

It is a crime really, but Derann when they were closing down, DID NOT have its customers interests at heart it must be said. The machinery was scrapped, just like their negatives, no one was going to benefit from them after their demise. Very poor play in my
book, which is why I do not heap praise on them when it is undeserved, yes they released some great titles, so did other distributors,
the least they could have done to help ensure some titles for customers would have been to pass the baton to another in the business, they didn't, so in an offhand way, they were a hindrance rather than aid to the hobby.



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RE: BFCC 64 at Ealing on 02,04.2016

#42 by Andrew Woodcock , Thu Apr 07, 2016 9:48 pm

I doubt too many would still be interested in Super 8mm film collecting, without them Hugh.
I know I certainly wouldn't be AS interested. Not by a long chalk!

There are other top quality brands of Super 8mm films like Kempski, Red Fox etc etc, but for the most part Derann purchased all of their goods when they threw the towel in earlier anyhow.

CHC has put one or two top titles out over the years as of course has Steve Osborne, but they don't come up for sale often on the second hand market, so if it were just these available, we'd all be doing plenty of waiting in between screenings.


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RE: BFCC 64 at Ealing on 02,04.2016

#43 by David Ollerearnshaw , Thu Apr 07, 2016 9:53 pm

Also remember Hugh they not only had their own negatives, they bought the negatives from the likes of Mountain Films. Must say that some of Derann's releases were poor quality especially the early titles. The editing on some of the 4x400ft releases was crap.

P.M. Films did a few nice 4x400ft titles and 3x400ft I liked Walton releases too. Pity they were so free with the scissors though. I didn't buy that many Powell titles, but the few I've seen seemed well done.


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RE: BFCC 64 at Ealing on 02,04.2016

#44 by Andrew Woodcock , Thu Apr 07, 2016 9:55 pm

It's all the post 85 stuff that does it for me, I have to say. Film stock quality improved beyond belief from that point onwards.


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RE: BFCC 64 at Ealing on 02,04.2016

#45 by Tom Photiou , Thu Apr 07, 2016 9:57 pm

All good stuff Hugh, yes your right about the stuff people have to pay out for, all this bollocks about monthly charges for mobile phones,the internet Television ,(if you dont use freeview) and all the kids buy crappy games machines for hundreds of pounds and laptops that cost parents fortunes, (re the above monthly costs), then you have the rip off games to go with them that sell two years later in second hand shops for a couple of quid.

Its all very sad, i remember well the layway scheme from Derann and even Paul Foster did a scheme for a few years which was over three months. Unfortunately earning crap money back then, (not much better now), i didn't buy anywhere near as much as i should have done. I really do regret not using this scheme more.
I think there was more than let on about Derann closing, it wasn't just down to rates, i knew that once dear old Derek passed away that this was the beginning of the end. I didn't expect it to be quite so fast though.
The fact that the machines were scrapped rather than either sold or given to another company/person who may have done something with them tells me there was little interest there. Although i have great respect for Mr Simmons junior he was not as interested in the cine side and certainly couldn't negotiate with the movie companies like Derek did. He knew the package movie industry inside out. His death was definatly the end of an era for the home movie scene. If he were still alive today he would still be in the business,(maybe operating from smaller premises or even his home), and prices on ebay would not be the ridiculous tags they are.


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RE: BFCC 64 at Ealing on 02,04.2016

#46 by Hugh Thompson Scott ( deleted ) , Thu Apr 07, 2016 11:22 pm

Well let us lay the myth Andrew, super 8 film collecting is not all DFS, neither did they produce consistently good prints, "sideways
weave" being a case in point, some of their prints were horrendous, "Dead of Night" as an example, Walton Films feature from
1975, "Witchfinder General", which received A* in Super 8 Collector #3, the colour is exceptionally natural, better than anything Derann
produced, as was their "One Million Years B.C." one reel A* again. at the time they stood alone in quality. I still have their first prints, they are as as nice colour now as then, definition is brilliant. Remember also that the German companies were not lax either, Marketing, before their
American deals, turned out stunning quality, their "Star Wars" extracts are beautiful print wise, as is "Land That Time Forgot" and "Return of Count Yorga" which one reviewer said it was the finest print he'd seen on s/8. The 3x400's of "Once Upon A Time in the West", German print & sound, leave the English sound prints in the starting blocks for colour and definition. Piccolo & UFA were also top drawer prints. Indeed take a look at my
post on "Fistful of Dollars", the colour is still excellent, from Italy, printed directly from 35mm, again stunning prints in 1975. Derann at this time had nothing in their canon to match this quality, When Derann had good material to print from, fine, but check out Movielands stunning print of "In Which We Serve", perfect gradation, Lone Wolf's prints of
his two epics are better than Derann's prints, as were Kempski's releases. The point I'm making, is DFS were not the be all of 8mm.Someone asked about the negs and was refused. So much for "keeping the flag flying for the all important customer". I reckon like Tom, that the firm might have had
some sort of existence if Derek had been alive, but unfortunately we'll never know., but let us be realistic, when they were good, they
were good, but when they were bad, we don't hear about so much. As for keeping interest in 8mm, there is still a very healthy secondhand market. It was when Rank labs closed that was their death knell, forgetting 8mm for a moment, the 16mm part of the
hobby is still doing well, even without DFS input, the secondhand market thrives, not so the movie maker or buyer of new product,
they have priced themselves out of it.



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Last edited Fri Apr 08, 2016 12:48 am | Top

RE: BFCC 64 at Ealing on 02,04.2016

#47 by Andrew Woodcock , Fri Apr 08, 2016 2:09 am

Yes Hugh I agree that now more than ever before, it appears a quality print will be an attractive proposition to any perspective buyer, no matter what the gauge.

I remember when Derann first moved into the 2nd hand market of 16mm prints and trade was generally very sluggish from what I noticed then compared to their 8mm used sales list back then.

Now, it's a different story, collectors appear to just want quality films with superb colour still, no matter what the format, they are popular again.

Speaking with Ian not so far back in time, he still maintained the 16mm used sales market was very stagnant and that was reflected in his e bay sales at the time.
Now, it could well be a different story, but what I still continue to notice is, that prices on 16mm are a fraction of their Super 8mm counterparts for all but the very best titles on both of the gauges.

As for the poor quality Derann prints associated mainly with their "early years", I sampled a fair amount of these poor prints myself in my first era. " The Devil Rides Out" was a huge disappointment to me I remember at the time.

But then I learned from buying titles like "Night Hair Child" and "That'll be The Day", that this grainy lack lustre stock used back then, was often the norm on just about about everyone's prints from that same era.

The first print that I purchased from the Derann used lists all those years back that really stood out in my mind was the 2x 600ft cut down release of "Police Academy 2".
I was simply blown away by the difference in resolution and vibrancy of colour from those earlier purchases.

By the time I committed to their "lay away" scheme for Mary Poppins, I was already convinced that the company had come of age in terms of the quality of their latest releases back then.
Once the film arrived to me, it proved to be totally the case and the stunning image quality simply surpassed beyond belief anything I was ever expecting!

From that moment on, I just knew, it was these prints on that lovely pre striped myler stock, that were always going to be my most sought after.

Nothing's changed in my mind from that day till this, though of course there are others that matched or even surpassed this superb combination of both a brilliant negative alongside a top laboratory.


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RE: BFCC 64 at Ealing on 02,04.2016

#48 by Dave Alligan , Fri Apr 08, 2016 10:09 am

Tom you are right their was more to it than the rates why Derann closed down but I cannot go into it more, im sorry .
Scrapping the machinery was terrible just like the negatives and soundmasters, these were just thrown into a skip, their was no need for that they could have been put to use, Dereks legacy would have gone on, to me it was just very bad management, and we all know who that is down to as MD of Derann Film Services.


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RE: BFCC 64 at Ealing on 02,04.2016

#49 by Hugh Thompson Scott ( deleted ) , Fri Apr 08, 2016 12:47 pm

To be fair, Derann released some great titles, mainly thanks to Rank giving them the use of their vaults, that was when the quality picked up. The old std 8 prints, in the past, especially the colour ones were excellent, some B/Ws were equally as good, but if you look at foreign
ebay sites, very few films are DFS, understandable, as the mainstay are usually their own, or another European product. Someone once said that the UK had the largest
quantity but lost on quality, where the reverse was true on the continent, not counting US prints, this isn't strictly true. Where Derann really scored was the MGM, Fox, UA & Disney deals, that was when they took the lead, coupled to Derek being able to stripe poly stock, I believe its this venture that caused problems for Derek's well being. These are the yardsticks that other prints are judged on. In this respect Derann
were World leaders, they kept the hobby going with new product when everyone else had given up, the same happened in the UK when
std 8 was axed, the UK kept it going for a few years over here. I have dealt with this company for more years than I care to remember, when they operated out of 268, Stourbridge Rd., I'm indebted to Derek for releasing personal favourite titles, but I can't forgive the wanton destruction of items that would have ensured collectors of some sort of service for their hobby, I'm sure Derek Simmonds would have taken a dim view of that course of action too.



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Last edited Fri Apr 08, 2016 1:02 pm | Top

RE: BFCC 64 at Ealing on 02,04.2016

#50 by Andrew Woodcock , Fri Apr 08, 2016 1:05 pm

As Dave said above, there is clearly more to all that side of things, than meets the eye!

I am just both grateful and wholeheartedly still involved in this hobby, purely because of those excellent film release deals you quote above Hugh, with companies like MGM, Rank ,Fox and Disney etc.

Anything else from Germany / CHC etc etc...is purely a bonus for someone with my film collecting interests.


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