Argh....even the sellers are owning up to it now!

#1 by Andrew Woodcock ( deleted ) , Thu May 05, 2016 10:36 am

Doing my usual e bay trawl this morning, look at this for a description.
Even the owners of these films are admitting to this recently discussed phonomon now!
Such a darned shame all round that many are permanently ruined by this!

"Beautiful Super 8 tinted print of D W Griffith's 1915 film THE BIRTH OF A NATION. This was issued in the 1970s by Thunderbird films, from the 1921 nitrate print. It is very nice picture quality, with excellent tinting, and an orchestral score on the magnetic soundtrack (this appears to be a generic score, not the Breil score).

There is an occasional Elmo scratch that comes and goes, but is usually light (this is visible on one of the last photos, on the right hand side of the frame). This must have been inflicted by the previous owner - I've only ever run this print on my Eumig!

Mounted on 6 x 400 and 1 x 200'.

No reserve. Check out my feedback. Happy bidding!"

Why do owners repeatedly leave it too late to redress these issues on these machines????


Another ad I checked out claims that having purchased a series of Super 8mm films off e bay in August and September of last year, they are now being sold on again as one of his Super 8mm projectors got knocked over by one of his kids, and the other , he cannot get the sound to play properly!
Super 8mm is not for me, was the sellers conclusion.

Yet another who dipped their toe in and out of the hobby very swiftly again, it would appear, sadly!


"C'Mon Baggy, Get With The Beat"


Andrew Woodcock
Last edited Thu May 05, 2016 10:51 am | Top

RE: Argh....even the sellers are owning up to it now!

#2 by Hugh Thompson Scott ( deleted ) , Thu May 05, 2016 11:25 am

Its quite simple Andrew, I know from experience with Elmo, the scratch can happen after the picture gate, therefore remains
unseen until the next screening, by that time its too late. I have lost count of the Elmo users on the other forums that laid down that their machines didn't scratch film.........until they try to sell their films on ebay, as one found out with a print of the title you're searching for, "Peter Pan", complete with various scratches that didn't impress the buyer. Elmo are not alone, there are many projectors
out there that have form. I felt as though I was making it up, but there are non so blind.....



Hugh Thompson Scott
Last edited Thu May 05, 2016 11:27 am | Top

RE: Argh....even the sellers are owning up to it now!

#3 by Timothy Duncan ( deleted ) , Thu May 05, 2016 3:58 pm

When I got started in the hobby, I got ahold of a few dud machines, which IS quite discouraging. But I stuck with it and got familiar with what machines had a better reputation and which ones to seriously avoid. In 16mm, the later Bell & Howells from the 70's/80's ALL have worm gear issues, which is a MAJOR problem. I've learned which super 8 machines to stay away from too. There's a lot of trial and error involved. Now, I have a handful of machines that are quite good and don't damage my films either. But it's taken nearly two years to get there. I sum it all up by saying that the venture has been well worth it in the end!

The forums have been a valuable resource for educating myself and obtaining the expertise from fellows like yourselves! Thank you guys!


Timothy Duncan

RE: Argh....even the sellers are owning up to it now!

#4 by Hugh Thompson Scott ( deleted ) , Thu May 05, 2016 4:34 pm

Tim, we all learn from each other, its what makes it fun, we all have experience the unhappiness of projectors spoiling
our treasured films, but through our love of the hobby, we put each other a bit wiser on how to avoid this problem.
I trust the 'ol 16mills are getting a workout.



Hugh Thompson Scott

RE: Argh....even the sellers are owning up to it now!

#5 by Timothy Duncan ( deleted ) , Thu May 05, 2016 4:44 pm

Not as much as I'd like Hugh! :-)


Timothy Duncan

RE: Argh....even the sellers are owning up to it now!

#6 by Andrew Woodcock ( deleted ) , Thu May 05, 2016 6:31 pm

While viewing the Armchair Odeon series earlier today on the VP, beginning with Phil Sheards Home Cinema, on one section of the interview, Phil shows us all some vintage footage he has from the Elmo production plant. Even this footage is rubber stamped with that infamous trade mark would you believe! lol.

Look to a third of the way in from the left hand side of the frame, and all that is well and truly familiar, rears it's ugly head once again at the top and bottom as curved markings. Unbelievable. Nothing is sacred!


"C'Mon Baggy, Get With The Beat"


Andrew Woodcock
Last edited Thu May 05, 2016 6:36 pm | Top

RE: Argh....even the sellers are owning up to it now!

#7 by Timothy Duncan ( deleted ) , Fri May 06, 2016 1:52 am

LOL Andrew! You didn't like my last entry?


Timothy Duncan

RE: Argh....even the sellers are owning up to it now!

#8 by Andrew Woodcock ( deleted ) , Fri May 06, 2016 6:38 am

No Timothy, I'd much rather you were able to give your films a longer "workout" , if you had more spare time.


"C'Mon Baggy, Get With The Beat"


Andrew Woodcock

RE: Argh....even the sellers are owning up to it now!

#9 by Alan Rik , Fri May 06, 2016 3:54 pm

I decided to run a loop of New Never Run Black film for 15 minutes on 3 projectors, a Bauer T610, Beaulieu 708HTI, Elmo GS1200 Xenon. I wanted to see which of these machines scratched my "Snowman" print! Grr!!!
Well...the results were inconclusive. After the 15 minutes had passed the one that had literally no marks on the film whatsoever was the Beaulieu. The GS and the Bauer both had light marks near the perforations but nothing in the image area.
I think what can sometimes happen is there may have been dirt or something that was on a print and then left on the machine. Lately I have been more religious with cleaning the projector after every screening so that may explain why the projectors performed the scratch test well . The scratches on the "Snowman" print I noticed happened after I had another Bauer T610, a Chinon, and a Eumig. So it may have been one of those but who knows?
Its a drag when you go to project a print and you notice a new scratch. The first scratches on my "Snowman" print were put there by a Sankyo S800 and an Eumig S940. But I don't remember cleaning them prior so that may have been operator error! eek!


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RE: Argh....even the sellers are owning up to it now!

#10 by Andrew Woodcock ( deleted ) , Fri May 06, 2016 9:40 pm

Hygiene within the film path is important, no doubting that. But some I've found need far more regular, in depth cleaning than others, I've equally found.


"C'Mon Baggy, Get With The Beat"


Andrew Woodcock
Last edited Wed May 11, 2016 2:00 pm | Top

RE: Argh....even the sellers are owning up to it now!

#11 by Tom Photiou , Sun May 08, 2016 11:46 am

Many of those cheap older projectors that were mass produced often had film paths that you could hardly get into as well making cleaning a real chore. Especially the ones with sealed heads were the only way in was a complete impossibility unless you were an engineer.
A machine i never owned, nor wished to was those Royal projectors, i think scratching films was built in as standard
A friend of mine had one and i dont think he had a film that didn't have loads of black lines or green tramlines.



 
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Last edited 05.08.2016 | Top

RE: Argh....even the sellers are owning up to it now!

#12 by Hugh Thompson Scott ( deleted ) , Sun May 08, 2016 12:08 pm

Well, in my experience, you can clean all you want, if the projector is badly designed, the introduction of plastic, which I hate, didn't
help one bit, vacu formed bits of Origami that slid, clicked or screwed back just highlighted bad engineering. I notice how they have
resurrected Ivan Watson's article on the 8mm forum, well if Ivan had still been with us, I'm sure a lot of his waxing lyrical on that Elmo GS
projector would have had to be redacted, in only a short time, it was presenting problems, strange how the old Bolex and Eumigs,
no tracks, just rollers, still give good service and don't damage film....ever. Blame the marketing men who foisted auto thread disasters
on the gullible public, unasked for, but forced on them anyway.



Hugh Thompson Scott

RE: Argh....even the sellers are owning up to it now!

#13 by Andrew Woodcock ( deleted ) , Sun May 08, 2016 12:46 pm

Without doing old ground, over and over and over again...

I'm a huge fan of autothread when it is designed and manufactured correctly.
I would hate to have to lace each and every short film manually on Super 8mm.

My only solution, would be to join many short reels together to make 600ft or 800ft compilation reels.

I am certain if you tried using some of the better machines at this game Hugh, for a good number of years...you may be of a slightly different mindset perhaps?

Who knows?

Either way, I'm delighted with the ones I lace with, and the exceptional reliable manner they conduct themselves in during thread.
Constant identical loops time after time, top and bottom.

More importantly, a completely different film path in run mode, than in thread, with all that
" landing gear" well and truly out of the way!


"C'Mon Baggy, Get With The Beat"


Andrew Woodcock
Last edited Sun May 08, 2016 1:01 pm | Top

RE: Argh....even the sellers are owning up to it now!

#14 by Hugh Thompson Scott ( deleted ) , Sun May 08, 2016 1:34 pm

It is going over old ground Andrew, but its a path that has been well trodden elsewhere. You say your machine is faultless on
auto thread, mine works everytime, it doesn't need fancy tracks, or guides, it only needs a caring operator, 100% satisfactory
threading. Not everyone has expensive kit, they rely on mid range machines, but whatever make or design, they all suffer
from that inherent weakness, auto thread. It opened the doors for many films to be ruined, no matter how many times you
tell us yours is okay, there are hundreds out there in use now that aren't, and the users films are just as important to them
as yours are, yet they are subjected to some tortuous path some boffin thought was time saving. As I said at the start, you can
clean film paths 'til the cows come home, but chances are it is something more sinister doing the damage. Films put through brand new
projectors that are permanently ruined by poor castings and cheap material used, just because it was thought too difficult for someone to use their hands to lace up a cine projector, pathetic. You pointed it out yourself with Elmo's bit of propaganda film, marked, no doubt on an auto thread machine, it takes a few seconds to thread a film, where was the problem?



Hugh Thompson Scott

RE: Argh....even the sellers are owning up to it now!

#15 by Andrew Woodcock ( deleted ) , Sun May 08, 2016 1:55 pm

It's no problem Hugh, just even easier placing the tip of a film leader at a guide shoe and letting it do the rest, that's all.

Let's also not lose sight here of the fact that very often the operator's themselves do not help the reputation of perfectly good mechanisms at times.
Here are one or two examples I've witnessed of bungling incompetence on the operator's behalf , no matter how much or how little a machine may cost;

1/ A Beaulieu 708el being threaded incorrectly by using the main control knob to attempt to do so.
2/ A Beaulieu 708el being blamed for not being reliable to thread because they used a bevel edged film cutter!
3/ A Beaulieu 708el attempting to be threaded by placing the film beneath the first input roller at the input guide like so many other machines are designed, instead of just correctly allowing the film to rest on top of the first input guide shoe roller as Beaulieu designed their machines to work.
4/ A Bauer projector being placed into thread mode while still projecting the film.
5/ Numerous observations of people trying to thread Standard 8mm film into Super 8mm projectors.
6/ All too many observations of people trying to repeatedly thread a machine that has a known fault on it.

Etc etc etc....the list of these and similar observations are endless!


"C'Mon Baggy, Get With The Beat"


Andrew Woodcock
Last edited Sun May 08, 2016 3:29 pm | Top

RE: Argh....even the sellers are owning up to it now!

#16 by Hugh Thompson Scott ( deleted ) , Sun May 08, 2016 2:06 pm

You'll find Andrew, that as time goes on, and your machine gets a bit of use, it will not always be as reliable, auto stuff never
is, if it has been endorsed by a marketing man, view it with suspicion, CDs, DVD, they all have inherent weaknesses. Projectors
that are basically all plastic are usually the ones with most problems, the older models, manual thread, metal bodies, still soldier
on without problems.



Hugh Thompson Scott

RE: Argh....even the sellers are owning up to it now!

#17 by Andrew Woodcock ( deleted ) , Sun May 08, 2016 2:07 pm

We will see regarding this Hugh. I will report back on this one in a decade , if i'm still alive.


"C'Mon Baggy, Get With The Beat"


Andrew Woodcock
Last edited Sun May 08, 2016 2:08 pm | Top

RE: Argh....even the sellers are owning up to it now!

#18 by Hugh Thompson Scott ( deleted ) , Sun May 08, 2016 2:15 pm

Never have those problems manually threading up Andrew, even in bad light, and you don't need to trim your end, ouch!



Mats Abelli likes this
Hugh Thompson Scott

RE: Argh....even the sellers are owning up to it now!

#19 by Douglas Warren ( deleted ) , Sun May 08, 2016 2:22 pm

If I may add my two cents...I wish manual threading would have been more common on Super-8 projectors. It's a simple procedure with less to go wrong part wise on the machine. I can thread up my 16mm machines in under a minute and the same is true of older Regular-8 projectors as well.


Mats Abelli likes this
Douglas Warren

RE: Argh....even the sellers are owning up to it now!

#20 by Andrew Woodcock ( deleted ) , Sun May 08, 2016 2:27 pm

But for trailers and 200ft shorts, 5 at a time, even just less than minute would seem excessive to myself.

Maybe it's just me..but while ever auto thread works as well it does for me nowadays, then I have no reason whatsoever, to wish for anything different.

As said, we will see if if I think differently in 2026. The opinion I have now formed has only been that one since around 2012.
Prior to that, as an ST1200 owner, I would have wholeheartedly agreed!

Ps.. I don't class "trimming my end" as a problem Hugh.


"C'Mon Baggy, Get With The Beat"


Andrew Woodcock
Last edited Sun May 08, 2016 2:34 pm | Top

RE: Argh....even the sellers are owning up to it now!

#21 by Hugh Thompson Scott ( deleted ) , Sun May 08, 2016 2:37 pm

Threading up I've never viewed as a chore, but you modern kiddies like everything done for you, all part of the hobby, with
the peace of mind that comes with manual thread.



Mats Abelli likes this
Hugh Thompson Scott

RE: Argh....even the sellers are owning up to it now!

#22 by Andrew Woodcock ( deleted ) , Sun May 08, 2016 2:38 pm

LmFAO!! Reporting back in 2026, all being well! (with me, not the machine. I have no doubt that will outlive me!!)


"C'Mon Baggy, Get With The Beat"


Andrew Woodcock
Last edited Sun May 08, 2016 2:42 pm | Top

RE: Argh....even the sellers are owning up to it now!

#23 by Hugh Thompson Scott ( deleted ) , Sun May 08, 2016 2:40 pm

He's gone to see if it still works. heh heh.



Hugh Thompson Scott

RE: Argh....even the sellers are owning up to it now!

#24 by Eivind Mork , Sun May 08, 2016 3:52 pm

I now own three projectors: A B & H 642 16mm manual, an Elmo 16CL slot loader and an Eumig 810D Super 8 auto. The manual 16mm is quite new to me, but I fail to do it right each time getting problems with the sound or even cut the film (happened twice), but I guess it will be better when I get better. The Eumig still plays up to me. Occationally eat film if it is not perfect. I have learned to know it and it happens far less than before, but I can never trust it 100% and allways but new leaders in front of all films I care about. The Elmo 16CL 16mm slot loader on the other hand has never failed me. Without doubt the one I like the best. Easy to load, and it has never kills my films. What more can you ask. The slot loader is so easy to operate that I can't say an auto would do any better.


Vidar Olavesen sais Thank You!
 
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RE: Argh....even the sellers are owning up to it now!

#25 by Andrew Woodcock ( deleted ) , Sun May 08, 2016 4:03 pm

The 810D should thread better than yours seemingly does here, Eivind. I had an 8 series one year's ago, threading was ok but many improved far more when the later machines were manufactured.
I never found a 8 series model that was completely kind to film though, back then.

If you had a 9 series machine ( except the awful co axial 926) , I'm sure you'd see far more reliable results from it, if it were all in good working order.

Even the 926 supposedly threads well, it's just everything else about this torturous twisted , nonsensical film path that is hideous!

Slot loading btw, is something completely unique to a handful of 16mm projectors. This is not an option on any Super 8mm Projector.


"C'Mon Baggy, Get With The Beat"


Andrew Woodcock
Last edited Wed May 11, 2016 6:11 pm | Top

   

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