RE: Argh....even the sellers are owning up to it now!

#26 by Eivind Mork , Sun May 08, 2016 4:16 pm

I hope so. My parents old P8 has an auto thread that almost never fails. I have looked into mine, but can't figure out what it is. I have learned to know it, though, so it works ok most of the time, but I can't trust it 100%. Rule 1: Make sure to use the Eumig clipper to clip of the end. Rule 2: Make a little bent at the end. Rule 3: If you put on a new leader make sure you make it bend the same way as the film. Made that mistake again yesterday, and I had to cut of the whole leader and put on a new one as it chew of the end twice.

But I am not a man to change equipment all the time, and I have no plans on buying a new one. Leader is cheap, and now when I know its habits the problem is small enough to live with.


 
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RE: Argh....even the sellers are owning up to it now!

#27 by Vidar Olavesen , Sun May 08, 2016 4:39 pm

I too feel the 16CL is very stable and easy to use. The Eumig tend to be better if you let it run a minute or so before threading. I still like the open and easy access Elmos. Remove film much easier than the impossible Eumig (you can't remove film, can you?)


 
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RE: Argh....even the sellers are owning up to it now!

#28 by Graham Sinden , Sun May 08, 2016 7:07 pm

Have to agree with Andrew on this one as I am also a fan of autothread. On my projectors it works 95% of the time and it would be a pain to have to manually thread every film, particularly if you are only looking at 1 trailer. On the few occasions it dosent work first time I would still rather have it than not have it.

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RE: Argh....even the sellers are owning up to it now!

#29 by Andrew Woodcock ( deleted ) , Mon May 09, 2016 6:12 pm

Just to conclude here Graham,

#16 by Hugh Thompson Scott ,

You'll find Andrew, that as time goes on, and your machine gets a bit of use, it will not always be as reliable, auto stuff never
is,"

Well the Beaulieu has been used regularly by all accounts since the mid 80's, so that is now 30 years plus, still no issues.....and the Bauer machines I have, work fine also after around the same length of time since they were manufactured.

One Bauer machine had virtually seized so far it's lower auto thread mechanism was concerned through lack of use over the past decade before I got it.

But, just like was explained to Alan Rik when he got a machine with similar issues, these can be rejuvenated with relative ease once they are given the correct treatment, so no problems there either.

Just because something stops working as it should, certainly doesn't render it ready for the knackers yard. Not in my book anyhow.

Far from it in fact, I look upon it as an opportunity to bring it to the standard it operated at when new, that's my outlook anyhow.


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RE: Argh....even the sellers are owning up to it now!

#30 by Hugh Thompson Scott ( deleted ) , Mon May 09, 2016 7:28 pm

As long as the main drive belt doesn't break Andrew, otherwise its a call to NASA and a team to dismantle it to put a new one on, that's progress, and a serious failing, simple task on other projectors, a rebuild on this one. Tom's favourite machine.Could be why they're so quiet, they're broken, heh heh.



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RE: Argh....even the sellers are owning up to it now!

#31 by Hugh Thompson Scott ( deleted ) , Mon May 09, 2016 11:22 pm

It sounds like I'm having a poke at Andrew, but I'm not, I'm having a go at these so called clever men that make life difficult, by over
engineering to the point that little tasks become costly nightmares. It used to be a rule of thumb in buying a projector, find out cost of
replacement lamps, now its availability too, but the added worry of an everyday occurrence like a rubber belt snapping, normally a fiddle at worst, but to jeopardise the integrity of the projector by trying to do it yourself seems insane. or to return to the manufacturer, all added cost, I have no doubt that these projectors run like
quicksilver when 100%, but when the unthinkable happens. I'll warrant there must be scores of projectors of this make, salted away in lofts or sheds, all wanting a rubber belt fitted.



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Last edited Mon May 09, 2016 11:29 pm | Top

RE: Argh....even the sellers are owning up to it now!

#32 by Paul Browning , Tue May 10, 2016 12:09 am

Its a always a subject that provokes some lively debates for sure. I have not owned a bauer projector, but the complexity of changing the belt would put me off ever owning one, regardless of how quiet it runs, before or after. You have my admiration Andrew for staying faithful to your 610. I do however own a fumeo 9119, and unlike all things Italian its not
that complicated unlike there sports cars, in fact I was expecting it to be, not at all. Its a simple machine to use and its simple to thread up, once you got the hang of it, and more easy to un thread if you get a film threading problem. the GS elmo is good when its auto thread works correctly, but really shite when it don't, much like the beaulieu , which folds
the film flat rapidly if don't get it in time, like the elmo. The belt should be the easiest thing to change on any machine, in my opinion, but these machines are very different animals when the belt snaps. I have a noris at the moment in pieces, and the belt will need changing because its stretched and flapping, but it looks like a partial dismantle to do this job, not a great design. To my mind the belt should be able to be changed in less than 10 minutes max when the backs off, belt pulleys aligned up flip old belt off, put new one on. Some might say its not that easy to design, I say its a rubber drive belt in most case's like that fitted on a car, just imagine how many early cars would have been sold if you had to dismantle half the bloody car to change it, and it runs at a much higher speed than any film projector does.


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RE: Argh....even the sellers are owning up to it now!

#33 by Andrew Woodcock ( deleted ) , Tue May 10, 2016 8:45 am

As I've said on the other forum recently Paul, the belt isn't something that you change out often. One of mine still has its original belt on it, all the way back from the 1980's!

By the time the belt needs changing, because of its unique design, the cam and claw would also be requiring inspection, lubrication and a possible service anyhow.
This is perhaps why the manufacturer felt it wasn't worth trying to make any modifications to the design to allow a quick change out of the belt.

For such as yourself, this work is no major deal here, just requires a little understanding and an ability to set things up precisely, that's all.

Quite a few other projectors I've either used or seen, don't always make belt change out a simple or quick task either.
For a S938 for example, quite a bit of dismantling is required and they patented their toothed belt design in the 80's. Needless to say, if this one breaks, you've got a real headache to try and find a replacement now as the original spares are long gone!

As I also pointed out on the other forum regarding all of this here,
If you want a projector you can change the main drive belt on, inside 30 seconds, without even having to remove a cover.....buy a Beaulieu!

Not quite certain I understand what you mean here Paul btw, when you describe the film folding rapidly if you don't quite catch it on time on the Beaulieu???
I think I'd need that one explaining to me somehow.


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RE: Argh....even the sellers are owning up to it now!

#34 by Alan Rik , Tue May 10, 2016 4:11 pm

I know the answer to this one!! Pick me pick me! :)
If the cut of the film leader is not trimmed right on the Beaulieu it will jam up before it gets to the gate and starts to pile up like Spaghetti! It happened to me a few days ago. Ooops!
In regards to belt changes I don't believe that we were meant to change the belts ourselves. I think the projector manufacturers did not envision themselves going out of business and therefore did not create a machine that was designed to be worked on by the everyday person. Thats why they tell you that only authorized personnel were supposed to take off the back cover of our machines. Its only through necessity that we work on the machines and that is when we see through the eyes of a service person. This machine is good because its modular, this one is good because anyone can work on it, etc. But that really has no bearing on the actual functionality of the machine.
Yes I could drive a car from the 60's and 70's that I can work on, but I prefer a modern car that has all the bells and whistles. When it goes down I get a repair person to fix it. The proof of a great machine, for me in the end is the image quality and the sound. And if you take care of the film paths and shortcomings of the design in regards to scratching and such you will have a machine that you will enjoy using. I do!
As I said before many people have not seen a Beaulieu working the way it should. Its really a marvel of science and technology. So quiet, even the HTI, and just an incredible bright image. Sharp-and on my particular machine scratch free. With the amount of use that my machine gets it will outlast me before the parts start going I believe. I hope!



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RE: Argh....even the sellers are owning up to it now!

#35 by Hugh Thompson Scott ( deleted ) , Tue May 10, 2016 4:29 pm

Well if you are content to parcel up your projector everytime it needs a new belt, who am I to criticise, I don't care for belts, rubber or
spring, they are a weakness and a shortcut, if they have to be used, chain would have been a better option, or better still, gears.
The Fumeo uses a rubber belt too, the recommended user belt does not last too long, I now use the belt from a Dyson cleaner split in
two, it lasts for years, but it is a couple of minutes to replace if one breaks, and I get just as nice a projected image, but don't need
a maintenance crew to fit it.



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Last edited Tue May 10, 2016 4:30 pm | Top

RE: Argh....even the sellers are owning up to it now!

#36 by Andrew Woodcock ( deleted ) , Tue May 10, 2016 6:19 pm

Hugh, chains and gears are not desirable as part of drive chain from a motor, directly to a driven load.
Occasionally in industry you will see chains from motor drive sprockets onto a driven sprocket used to drive conveyors etc, from a motor fed direct on line., but aside from that, direct drives without a clutch tend to use rubber belts or springs in order to induce a means of absorbing some of the start up torque from the motor while absorbing into them, some of the inertia needed to get the heavier driven load with more mass,, up to speed without damaging motor or sprocket etc.

Direct drives using gears without the use of soft start control circuitry , would shatter or very quickly wear the teeth.
Direct on line chain drives, damage or distort the teeth on the sprockets relatively quickly.

Using a flexible coupling in between the motor and the driven load would help, but then it is the flexible coupling that becomes the "mechanical fuse" so to speak.

Either way, you need a "mechanical fuse" somewhere in the drive chain and this is what a drive belt provides as a cheap and efficient method of controlling the drive chain without damage to the drive itself or the driven load.

Alan I agree with all that you say, also love the referral to the line from Shrek ha ha, but what Paul was describing does not sound like he was witnessing his film "concertina..ing or bunching" so I am not certain this is what he was meaning here with his reported symptoms.


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Last edited Tue May 10, 2016 8:04 pm | Top

RE: Argh....even the sellers are owning up to it now!

#37 by Tom Photiou , Tue May 10, 2016 6:35 pm

I think the term Elmo scratch is very unfair, this occurs when parts wear and are either not replaced or the machines are not cleaned properly.
Bearing in mind how old most Elmo's must be now, what about the films that are absolutely covered in lines and tramlines that never went near an Elmo?

I see the GS front green mod now available needs slight modifying, a friend of mine bought one for his and it was designed in such a way that when the film emerged from it, it would miss the loop former and most of the time would mangle the film up. He was better off with the original.


 
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RE: Argh....even the sellers are owning up to it now!

#38 by Andrew Woodcock ( deleted ) , Tue May 10, 2016 6:41 pm

The steel shoe is the best solution for the initial sprocket section Tom.

I agree with you to a degree regarding wear on guides Tom, but these things can cause chaos to film inside weeks of ownership from brand new.

Just see what Hugh reported from owning his brand new GS right from the minute go!

There's much more to it than just wear, and part of the problem is to do with the path itself placing too many tight and unnecessary curvatures on the film in too limited a space.

Too much contact on the film also when in run. All you actually want touching the film when in run mode is the gate and magnetic heads ideally.
The more film that floats in mid air in run ( not thread of course), ..the better the film path.


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Last edited Tue May 10, 2016 8:28 pm | Top

RE: Argh....even the sellers are owning up to it now!

#39 by Paul Browning , Tue May 10, 2016 6:50 pm

Its the concertina effect Andrew as described. To me its folding the film on top of itself. The Elmo does this and so does the beaulieu , and as rik says even when you trim the end
correctly. More to do with the film curling too much me thinks at the start. I don't it ever happened on the Fumeo, least not when I have used mine anyway. I suspect that unlike Rik if you were in the middle of a film show and the belt snapped, unless you have taken a spare projector your film shows would be no more, as for the easier change belts, perhaps you would be down 20 minutes or so. All these projectors need a drive of some kind to advance the film through the gate, I just like mine to be as easy as possible to change out myself.


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RE: Argh....even the sellers are owning up to it now!

#40 by Andrew Woodcock ( deleted ) , Tue May 10, 2016 6:54 pm

Can not honestly say I've experienced this Paul so long as the film is dovetailed correctly.

If the claw penetration is incorrectly set, I know the film can bunch entering the gate, but that is the only place I've seen mine bunch while I was setting the claw penetration once it was becoming increasingly noisier.

It's 100% reliable now the penetration is set correctly and unbelievably quieter too.

Maybe two "100 thread up" videos are now needed! Ha ha.

I agree though Paul. There is nothing can be done quickly or easily if a drive belt fails during a film show, with a Studio Bauer.


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Last edited Tue May 10, 2016 8:29 pm | Top

RE: Argh....even the sellers are owning up to it now!

#41 by Paul Browning , Tue May 10, 2016 7:10 pm

If I suspect a film will do this, I try to reverse curl the end. Trimming the ends on the beaulieu is pretty straightforward, but it did not work first time on this film sadly. It needed a white leader on it, which it got after this little incident.


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RE: Argh....even the sellers are owning up to it now!

#42 by Andrew Woodcock ( deleted ) , Tue May 10, 2016 7:38 pm

not witnessed that Paul, I have to say?????

Given that the white leader will have been acetate more than likely, if the film after it is ester, this would suggest perhaps slightly more depth of penetration is needed here., maybe.

Difficult to say though without actually seeing in person it's behaviour though.

Equally, what i can say for certain, is you really shouldn't be needing to induce curl to a film on these.

I've even threaded leader with the curl in the opposite direction on one of these when I accidentally spliced it onto the beginning of a feature tail first.

Poker straight Polyester just sails through it with a dovetail trimmed leader.

I've seen some recommend using scissors to create a dovetail in the absence of an actual manufactured professional cutter.....

Wrong!!

It isn't just the chamfered 45 degree edges that is important here, it is also the distance of the first sprocket hole in the film from the leading edge of the film.
Only an official cutter with a notch for locating the sprocket hole within, can do the job correctly!


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Last edited Tue May 10, 2016 8:52 pm | Top

RE: Argh....even the sellers are owning up to it now!

#43 by Tom Photiou , Tue May 10, 2016 10:00 pm

Lets all be honest.all projectors have there own imperfections and all users have there preffered machines.
Anything mechanical will wear out in time.those that are never serviced will wear and damage films much faster than those who just use them until they break down. I remember reading twenty years ago or more that the green guides on the elmos were recommended to be changed when wearing out, clearly many people didnt listen. The gs 1200 clearly had a poor design in that front guide but as i mentioned, i have bought some films that make me wonder what the hell people did with there movies but also what on eartb did they show them on to make them such mess


 
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RE: Argh....even the sellers are owning up to it now!

#44 by Andrew Woodcock ( deleted ) , Tue May 10, 2016 10:20 pm

My preferences only come about from my experiences of using many. I can honestly say that to those that have the opinion "there is no perfect projector" , well maybe not, but there are more than couple that come very very close indeed!

If guides wear, and that is the only normal scenario when films become scratched, well that's ok in my book.
On the Studio models, it won't be the guides that scratch film first, it will always be a worn cam.

Wear is acceptable, scratching from new due to a torturous film path..is not in my book.
Even worse when it is totally at random as this is impossible to control.

Movement of the loops tells us a great deal here with all of this. There really shouldn't be any noticeable movement in run , and a films sprocket hole should appear very very steady when studied using an inspection lamp at close quarters as it enters the gate.
If it does, you typically stand half a chance with all of this here.

It's only by owning many different machines and giving them all prolonged usage that you begin to realize there is a big real difference from the very worse to the very best.


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Last edited Wed May 11, 2016 1:25 pm | Top

RE: Argh....even the sellers are owning up to it now!

#45 by Tom Photiou , Tue May 10, 2016 10:31 pm

Same here.i always fancied the GS but speaking to many people its a good machined but so over engineered for its needs i took the good advice and stuck with the eumigs and for myself the HD 1200 . A good reliable workhorse.easy to fix easy to maintain film removal at any stage easy swing lens access and of course excellent light and sound output.
If your an electrical engineer and can do your own repairs then the top of the range becomes more manageable


 
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RE: Argh....even the sellers are owning up to it now!

#46 by Andrew Woodcock ( deleted ) , Tue May 10, 2016 10:40 pm

I don't believe it is "over engineered" Tom.
To me, it is its sophistication that gives it its appeal. It's a top projector let down predominately by an archaic lazily designed film path from an era before it was produced in.

They simply replicated old designs they had that they had already come under criticism for, rather than beginning from scratch, so to speak.

I think it needed larger motors for the reel arms than it gave them, but generally, its electronics and facilities are second to none for the era it was produced in. The electronics side of things are what the Japanese were always brilliant at.

It's a pity they didn't attend German or English Mechanical Engineering classes in the mid 70's for the rest!


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Last edited Wed May 11, 2016 12:45 am | Top

RE: Argh....even the sellers are owning up to it now!

#47 by Tom Photiou , Tue May 10, 2016 10:47 pm

I also think it was a pity that companies didnt simply do a projector to show films with more put into the actual showing rather than recording. I.e. two versions.one for the people who enjoyed just viewing and one for those who wanted the full works with sound recording. I dont disagree with the poor design on the gs but after 35 years with three HDS Our films have not suffered scratching.any scratches on our movies were there when we bought them. I think the guy refered to puttin on ebay only an elmo scratch.s he talki g about his own or is he assuming i wonder.


 
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RE: Argh....even the sellers are owning up to it now!

#48 by Andrew Woodcock ( deleted ) , Tue May 10, 2016 10:50 pm

Most know of the "Smiley Face" syndrome, among others, by now Tom, no need to second guess it's origins.

Having been in the hobby for as long as you have, uninterrupted, your spares from Hanimex have stood you in good stead here Tom, no doubting that!

It's ironic it is a smiley face shape, it smacks of a piss take once you've experienced it as you feel far removed from having anything like a smiley face once you have seen this happen to one of your precious prints,totally unsolicited I might add!

As for playback only machines, Elmo did a GS variant that offered this and by and large, that is what Fumeo projectors are all about, given their a.c. drive and therefore lack of recording facilities for the vast majority of models.


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Last edited Tue May 10, 2016 10:58 pm | Top

RE: Argh....even the sellers are owning up to it now!

#49 by Tom Photiou , Tue May 10, 2016 10:59 pm

Absolutley agree there Andy. When i bought my first one even as a youngster i was always fasinated how these machines worked.i made sure when i bought my first one i did my homework and found out about how it worked how to look after it and above all else where i could get spare parts.in fact it was roger lily of movieland international here in plymouth who,when he sold it yo me, said the onky thing i will advise you to do is get hold of all the green guides if you can so i did and to this day i still have more than enough to out live me. Mind you something will break that i havnt got now


 
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RE: Argh....even the sellers are owning up to it now!

#50 by Andrew Woodcock ( deleted ) , Tue May 10, 2016 11:01 pm

You have the most important bits and pieces there Tom. For everything else, a doner machine would offer no detriment.
There are Soooo... very many St 1200's out there... they will most definitely see you and your children right if they so wished!


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Last edited Tue May 10, 2016 11:02 pm | Top

   

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