RE: Are things getting somewhat out of hand?

#51 by Andrew Woodcock ( deleted ) , Wed Oct 21, 2015 2:05 pm

Yes it's a completely non viable venture now I'd say unless you are either extremely wealthy and can afford to do do this kind thing for the fun and love of it, or can somehow persuade over 100 potential punters to part with their hard earned up front.

This would need to be organized as a non profit making film loving club I feel, rather than for any monetary business type gain or basis.
Each member of the dedicated club would have to provide some kind of service be it splitting, printing, spooling or recording etc etc.


Andrew Woodcock

RE: Are things getting somewhat out of hand?

#52 by Steve Carter ( deleted ) , Wed Oct 21, 2015 2:12 pm

Wenn Sie hier auf Links zu eBay klicken und einen Kauf tätigen, kann dies dazu führen, dass diese Website eine Provision erhält.

Hunchback Disney starting bid £450 plus £20 P&P????.
Werbung: Disney Hunchback


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RE: Are things getting somewhat out of hand?

#53 by Andrew Woodcock ( deleted ) , Wed Oct 21, 2015 2:16 pm

My copy is on route as we speak. Only glad I didn't have to pay this amount for it!

More to follow once it arrives later this week hopefully.


Andrew Woodcock

RE: Are things getting somewhat out of hand?

#54 by Vidar Olavesen , Wed Oct 21, 2015 2:22 pm

It's expensive at 250 GBP, 450 is simply wild. Was Hunchback a computer Disney or was it drawn the old style? If it's computer generated, it's not worth much for myself. I assume it's not easy to take the digital out of a video, even if it's on film. That's why I turned down American Sniper on 35mm, it's digital to begin with and I'd rather see it on the unmentionable for a cheap price then. The new Star Wars on the other hand, that's something I'd pay a bit of money for, if it was released on Super 8


 
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RE: Are things getting somewhat out of hand?

#55 by Robert Crewdson ( deleted ) , Wed Oct 21, 2015 2:24 pm

I am surprised CHC can remain in business. Unlike a lot of dealers working from home, they have to pay business rates. I don't know how the Super 8 side is doing, but their 16mmfilms don't shift. This I think is down to non description of their shorts, and obscure titles in their features. It's impossible to tell from most of the short film titles what the film is about.



Robert Crewdson

RE: Are things getting somewhat out of hand?

#56 by Andrew Woodcock ( deleted ) , Wed Oct 21, 2015 2:27 pm

It's a later CGI print Vidar. At £250 you've got yourself a bargain for these rarer titles in superb condition. At £450 you've got to be dedicated, without doubt!

If it is to complete a collection on these, i would just about pay it, however, just like all of these prints, if they have been used on certain machines, as this one almost certainly has, you simply cannot help be put off by those all too frequently spoken words...
"only light signs of use!!" Especially at these prices.

Wouldn't the latest Star Wars still have to come from a digital source Vidar, even if it were ever to make the Super 8mm format??



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Last edited Wed Oct 21, 2015 2:32 pm | Top

RE: Are things getting somewhat out of hand?

#57 by Tom Photiou , Wed Oct 21, 2015 4:04 pm

Andy, thats right, £250 is pretty good, but as the thread title states, looking at a couple of Derann features on e-bay, when they start at over £400, this is when its all gone too far, i always said i f i sell on e-bay, start at a good reasonable price, if it goes ridiculous then good luck to the seller and the buyer probably has more money than sense, unfortunately, although it's great to see our collections going up in value, these stupid prices may well only spped up the amount of people who may think of leaving the hobby, or at best, no longer purchasing good titles, simply because they wont be able to afford it, or (the sensible ones like me), will know when the price of a "movie" is just ridiculous.
I do think a max for an average feature should be 200-300, anything more is stupidity with the exception of Gone with the wind or Sound of music because of there lengths, oddly enough as you all know GWTW generally doesnt reach that much when compared to others making it a bargain. A title we will hold onto.



 
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RE: Are things getting somewhat out of hand?

#58 by Andrew Woodcock ( deleted ) , Wed Oct 21, 2015 4:09 pm

For a print like this Tom, which inevitably will have some wear, as the past has shown time and time again, Invariably, they simply do not sell at these starting prices.

It is then up to the seller to re evaluate his film.


Andrew Woodcock

RE: Are things getting somewhat out of hand?

#59 by Hugh Thompson Scott ( deleted ) , Wed Oct 21, 2015 4:45 pm

Wenn Sie hier auf Links zu eBay klicken und einen Kauf tätigen, kann dies dazu führen, dass diese Website eine Provision erhält.

The halcyon days of picking up hard to find features for a few quid are long behind you, ebay has kept this hobby ticking over, Vidar
can pick up films for a song mainly because no one wants film anymore in Norway, the UK is a different matter, someone with a fine
print of a super 8 feature is not going to take it to a dealer and be offered peanuts, if he's any sense it goes on ebay. Putting too high
a price seems silly, but nothing wrong with a reserve, just to make sure the print goes for a fair price. Ask yourselves, what do you think
the price would be for a 4x600' feature now in colour/snd, I reckon it would be somewhere in the £700.00 mark. So someone selling
his "never gonna get it again" film for a healthy profit, is not ripping anyone off, this is now a hobby that was kept alive by the public,
it has now become a rich mans hobby again, as it once was. So its a bitter pill to swallow boys, but those prints that are out there, are going to be bloody expensive, but as everyone said when video was knocking on the door, silver is more expensive than oxide (rust), it was never more expensive than now.



Hugh Thompson Scott

RE: Are things getting somewhat out of hand?

#60 by Tom Photiou , Wed Oct 21, 2015 8:48 pm

That is a good point ~Hugh, it will be interesting to see if the Scope feature of The Spy who loved me will actually get any sales, that must be going to cost around 700 i would have thought, if not more.



 
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RE: Are things getting somewhat out of hand?

#61 by Hugh Thompson Scott ( deleted ) , Wed Oct 21, 2015 9:25 pm

Somehow Tom, I have my doubts, even though it is my favourite Bond film, it has everything, great locations, gorgeous girls, a great
villain, great heavies and lots of quips for Roger, what's not to like, except the price. Very few of us are prepared to pay this kind of money for what is lets face it, an entertainment. As for this tired bloody mantra that some of them trot out "Lets keep super 8 alive"
well not at the cost of one putting oneself in the doghouse or worse the poorhouse for the sake of a film nearly forty years old!
My answer to the disciples is this, "You had your chance to keep super 8 alive but chose another medium in favour of film, so piss off".
It really irritates me in that I have never owned a video camera, never projected anything but film, have spent a fortune on this hobby,
then up pops someone who thinks they know the score, telling the die hards we aren't supporting a hobby they turned their backs on.
With prices like these, or any other super 8 sold on ebay, 16mm has the definite edge on that carry on.



Hugh Thompson Scott
Last edited Wed Oct 21, 2015 9:26 pm | Top

RE: Are things getting somewhat out of hand?

#62 by Tom Photiou , Wed Oct 21, 2015 10:46 pm

very true hugh & with my recent purchase of over 400 for a faulty projector not once but again after repair, i can no longer justify very big payouts for equipment or films. I will always be loyal to film but the idea of massive payouts for a movie are simply not for me, at the end of the day 90% of my showings are just me on my own, so although i would love alien or aliens a grand would have the Mrs put me in the looney bin, i only buy films with money i get selling some of my duplicated films or films i simply no longer want, it is sad how expensive some of them go for but i guess as has already been stated, if you have a shed load of dosh then you will be happy to pay the price i guess.



 
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RE: Are things getting somewhat out of hand?

#63 by Hugh Thompson Scott ( deleted ) , Wed Oct 21, 2015 11:09 pm

Exactly Tom, sense must prevail, I would love to purchase loads of stuff, but we all have to exist, so I tell myself "Its only a Movie, Its only a Movie, Its only a Movie", doesn't do any bloody good, but at least I tried.



Hugh Thompson Scott

RE: Are things getting somewhat out of hand?

#64 by Barry Attwood ( deleted ) , Thu Oct 22, 2015 10:55 am

Personally as a small 'legit' dealer (i.e. accounts, paying taxes etc.) I've found the years since Derann's demise a struggle to buy at a reasonable price any of there big features, 10 years ago I could buy a Derann feature, hopefully make a few quid and provide a service for my customers. But nowadays that has all changed with the prices being garnered on ebay, I am offered some of these F/L Derann prints, but usually way over the price I'd like to sell them on, so what do I do, I've set my targets lower, and now I try and find the unusual short subjects, as nearly every collector shows one or two shorts in a program. It's not to say I won't buy the bigger features, if I do I usually get them in a whole collection, where I can afford to give a little more, but even buying a whole collection is getting rarer now, as ebay is the place a lot of people try first now before selling on what's left to the dealers.

I can't blame anyone trying to get as much money for yheir prints as possible, but as a small dealer I have to be very careful with my money, and as most of you on this forum will have seen my lists, I've plenty of films listed (and awaiting listing), but there's not much in the way of 'Blockbuster' titles nowadays, I just can't afford the prices I'm quoted, and what some collectors don't seem to realise is the fact that if that print doesn't sell straight away, a lot of money is just sitting on the shelf, and I have no idea when (or if) I will sell it. Times are really tough during the Summer months, and it's getting harder each year to get through them with my head above water. I even have a sale each issue on my OLD STOCK 8mm films, I'm even listing a 50% sale on some sizes right now, but even that has been dissapointing, but as a used film dealer I can only sell what I've got in stock at any given time, and you collectors are really varied in your tastes.

I look on ebay and a guy is selling one of the old Walton 4x400's of one of the Peter Cushing "Doctor Who" movies, the boxes are all beat up, he states he's never had a projector and just bought it as he collects "Docto Who" stuff, he has no idea what the condition of the print is, and he's got a BUT IT NOW price of only £380 or best offer, come on, if that's not taking the P***, what is! Still there may be some daft person out there, there normally is! (£1000 for a "Star Wars" print on ebay recently!).

I keep going, it's tough, but what else would I do (answers on a postcard, ha! ha!).


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Barry Attwood

RE: Are things getting somewhat out of hand?

#65 by Andrew Woodcock ( deleted ) , Thu Oct 22, 2015 11:05 am

The good news is Barry, that you are still getting offered some of the Derann later blockbusters. Ok, so say the guy says £280 for it, and you know for certain that you will make a small amount, even if its just £20, it generates more and more interest, the fact that you may have some of these type prints from time to time.

When Paul foster or Ian have any of these type of prints, they fly off the shelf, often within a day or so. So what would be the risk in taking on a few Barry?

I am certain it would help the rest of your sales Barry. After all, if a person becomes tagged as only ever selling "generic" prints, they may not even bother to visit the site, let alone purchase anything.

I know what you're saying about being nervous about laying out relatively large sums for these, but a super fast £20 here or £50 there profit, may not be so bad for business Barry.

What are your thoughts on this theory Barry?



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Last edited Thu Oct 22, 2015 11:42 am | Top

RE: Are things getting somewhat out of hand?

#66 by Barry Attwood ( deleted ) , Thu Oct 22, 2015 12:03 pm

Andrew,

The trouble is the fact that recently I just haven't been offered any of the quality Derann later prints, up to a few months ago I would get 2 or 3 calls a month offering me the 'Quality' titles (but not always F/L prints), but word of the big prices on ebay are putting most off on offering me these titles. I'm up for buying them if it's the right title, I'll pay the money if I think I can move it on quick, but the 'ebay' effect is more tempting. I know I send my own lists out, they are seen online, but ebay can potentially be seen in 90% of the worlds homes these days, it's instant, and there's still plenty of collectors who do not know who or what Independent 8 is, even after trading for 23 years now.

So Andrew I have to put my money into something that, at least, keeps me ticking over until the next collection with some bigger titles is offered. I have a core of about 25 - 30 regular customers who buy something on nearly every list, and I'm really surviving on those, with the added extras that order each issue.

I was thinking the other day how lucky that I've survived this long, compared with the might of CHC, Perry's and Paul Foster, I'm only a small fish in a bigger pond, but I've survived, I've seen the mighty Derann fall and I'm still trading, and (just about) getting bye. I know there are plenty of collectors like yourself who love the newer F/L titles, but there are also plenty of collectors who really love the shorter subjects, and perhaps could not afford some of these recent prices, so at least I'm keeping them going with new items for their collections, there's got to be an even balance in my opionion.


Barry Attwood

RE: Are things getting somewhat out of hand?

#67 by Dave Alligan , Thu Oct 22, 2015 3:13 pm

Wenn Sie hier auf Links zu eBay klicken und einen Kauf tätigen, kann dies dazu führen, dass diese Website eine Provision erhält.

I agree with you Barry, the problem is that collectors want to put their films on Ebay because they know that they will get silly money for them you cant blame them, as a dealer you can only sell what you are offered and if you are not offered the titles you cannot sell them, and cost has to come in the equasion, its all well and good saying that if you can make £20 that's good but in business you have overheads to pay, accounts don't come cheap, bank accounts in business are NOT free you have to pay for them, printing lists are not cheap, postage, shall I go on, being realistic you have to look at making a 35% profit on your sales and I know that for a fact, its not easy being a film dealer in this age with the likes of ebay.
Plus as well its not fair when dealers put their films on ebay and not put them on their own lists which collectors pay to have delivered to them, I can tell you of a well known 8mm dealer who had a f/l print of star wars and put it straight onto ebay and never even put it on his own lists, now was that fair to the collectors who pay to have the lists in the post, I don't think so.


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RE: Are things getting somewhat out of hand?

#68 by Hugh Thompson Scott ( deleted ) , Thu Oct 22, 2015 3:24 pm

Prices are dictated by what people are prepared to pay. If someone sells a print of Star Wars, gets himself £800.00 for it,
that sets the precedent for the next copy up for sale, there are only so many copies out there, I myself have a lovely print,
so there's no way would I be selling for any less than what we have seen, I'd be crazy to do so, when we sell, we try for the best deal,
so public auctions are the best bet. Dealers condemn ebay in one breath then use it the next.



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Last edited Thu Oct 22, 2015 3:31 pm | Top

RE: Are things getting somewhat out of hand?

#69 by Dave Alligan , Thu Oct 22, 2015 3:56 pm

Wenn Sie hier auf Links zu eBay klicken und einen Kauf tätigen, kann dies dazu führen, dass diese Website eine Provision erhält.

That is exactly what I am saying Hugh, you cant blame collectors for selling their films for top dollar but dealers should not condemn ebay then use it themselves but then expect collectors to pay for their lists which only contains films they cant sell on ebay.


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RE: Are things getting somewhat out of hand?

#70 by Hugh Thompson Scott ( deleted ) , Thu Oct 22, 2015 4:31 pm

All the dealers use ebay, either buying or selling, I said years ago on a different forum, during a similar discussion, once dealers use ebay, they are punters themselves just like us, so they have no excuse to howl in discontent when others sell their wares on it. In the past, dealers had a fairly good time of it, films moved through their hands regularly, now the market has shrunk, the very fact that
many of these features now fetch a lot of money on ebay gives the impression that anyone paying these prices for a wanted film is
devoid of sense, no, that's my point entirely, these films are now collectors items in their own right, you couldn't get these films printed again, even by the much vaunted German labs. The negs are gone, the stock is unavailable, the stripe can't be done anymore, coupled
to which the prices are out of this world, thus anyone selling their copies now SHOULD expect top dollar, they are irreplaceable in the
sense that they will NEVER come this way again, not to mention the very strange Acetate that no doubt complies with EU regulations
and whenever I mentioned it before, no one gives any explanation as to why it behaves like it was a hundred years old. No, the sad fact is, expect to pay a lot of money for future prints, the current wave of buyers prove this, the choice is yours, a tried and tested used film,
or a brittle up to date film from Germany that you had to remortgage the house for, I know which I'd rather have.



Hugh Thompson Scott

RE: Are things getting somewhat out of hand?

#71 by Barry Attwood ( deleted ) , Thu Oct 22, 2015 5:05 pm

Dear Hugh,

I never sell films on ebay and have no intention in doing so, once you take the fees out, and if they pay by credit card sometimes you can end up with a loss, so what's the point.


Barry Attwood

RE: Are things getting somewhat out of hand?

#72 by Hugh Thompson Scott ( deleted ) , Thu Oct 22, 2015 5:59 pm

Barry, if someone unloaded a print of Alien or Aliens or some other cult film, I'm sure you wouldn't be putting it on
your list at what Derann sold it for, that is my point. The stuff that was sold by DFS during the late '80s early '90s
is much sought after, it now commands big money, ebay dictates what prices are of those films mentioned, Mr Lail
just sold his copy of one of them for $1500, I doubt we would see films of this calibre on any dealers list for their
original retail price, unless multiplied a few times.



Hugh Thompson Scott

RE: Are things getting somewhat out of hand?

#73 by Andrew Woodcock ( deleted ) , Fri Oct 23, 2015 10:24 am

There would be no shortage of profit Barry for any of the titles mentioned if you were to put them on e bay after you had been offered them at even the brand new price paid to Derann at the time!

Dave, I know exactly which example of Star Wars you are talking about and I thought the very same thing at the time, especially given the fact I have heard it said by the very same dealer that they never put their films on e bay!

I gotta say though, I really don't blame the person for doing so. Like Hugh says, anyone with an ounce of sense would do likewise. Perhaps the word NEVER shouldn't have been said. It's a little too much to promise in this era.

I simply don't think they would make anyones "lists" now Hugh! You could possibly be losing out by even putting a mark up of 300%!!!

Going back to Dave's point regarding the £20 thing not covering overheads, I am certain Barry makes much less on some films than even this amount, so what's the difference in making a fiver on cartoon or £20 on a desirable feature for an avid collector?
It keeps the hobby alive and generates new interest and faith in that particular dealers lists knowing something like this may come along now again.

I doubt there would be too many where the profit margin could be this slight anyhow if it were an LPP feature offered.

I suppose Barry would have to disclose what kind of films he has declined in what kind of condition and at what prices they were offered before we could really gauge it knowing today's market as we all do.



Andrew Woodcock
Last edited Fri Oct 23, 2015 10:38 am | Top

RE: Are things getting somewhat out of hand?

#74 by Barry Attwood ( deleted ) , Fri Oct 23, 2015 10:49 am

You get me wrong, I do not sell on ebay at ALL, I believe if I'm a dealer, then I deal openly and honestly, it's on my lists and nowhere else. If I could aquire any of the top notch Derann prints I would list them only on my sales lists and get a profit the best I could, I'm not in it for hundreds of pounds on a single print, a modest profit has always been what it means to myself, I couldn't have gone on trading for as long as I have done if I continually ripped off the collectors I buy from and sell to. Perhaps that's why I count myself as the smallest 'legit' dealer, but I wouldn't have it any ther way. I've had the big titles on my lists in the past, and they have all sold with a small profit, but nothing earth shattering, I just don't and will not do that, if that means I turn down a particular title because I think the seller is asking too much I will do, I think there should be a ceiling amount, as a dealer, I should charge for any title, how rare it is, and if that means my lists look very 'generic' as Andrew said, then so be it, these are my ways, and they have served me well for 23 years trading now, and I wish more dealers would go the route I have chosen, but that is entirely up to them. I make enough to pay my bills each year, what more can be asked for in this day and age. But one thing is certain, all films I sell will be listed on my own sales lists, and they will appear nowhere else except for the Forum exclusives I've listed here, and I may discontinue that as it seems my current new stocks are not as up to date for some members of this forum, but I must state once again, as a used film dealer I can only sell what I currently have in stock.


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Barry Attwood

RE: Are things getting somewhat out of hand?

#75 by Andrew Woodcock ( deleted ) , Fri Oct 23, 2015 10:53 am

Extremely commendable Barry in this day and age. I doth my cap!


Andrew Woodcock

   

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