It is interesting to read David Hardy's latest comments

#1 by Andrew Woodcock , Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:07 am

It is interesting to read David Hardy's latest comments as he says he plans to replace all of his Super 8mm films entirely with 16mm versions wherever possible.

When I have read many peoples comments over the years it makes me wonder about the policy of act in haste, repent at leisure regarding decisions such as these.
Only this morning I have been speaking to somebody who collected Super8mm then switched entirely to 35mm only now to wish to buy back much of what he sold on Super 8mm once again!

Problems with aging Acetate stock, fading and VS have really meant this person needed to rethink the bigger picture so to speak.
Let's hope David doesn't arrive at the same crossroads somewhere down the line!

Super 8mm later top titled polyester magnetic striped feature films often fetch the highest prices among any on all of the gauges.
There might just be a reason as to why this is.

I just think back to comments posted by some users of the larger gauges such as Ian White here and certain comments really struck a chord with me,...

" Absolutely stunning! Talk about green with envy - if I stood on my lawn right now you wouldn't be able to distinguish me from the grass ! I don't remember Super 8 being this good. Think maybe I'll have to alter my plans ...."

"Thanks for that, Andrew. The 'new' projector has made all the difference and has gone a long way towards restoring my faith in 16mm. But David also talked about some things that made me question the long-term future of collecting in 16mm.

There appears to be far more activity on the super 8 scene and the quality you have demonstrated on here has been so good that I reckon I stand more chance of getting good stuff on super 8 than I do on 16mm. I can't give up 16mil, but I can start super 8!

To that end I am looking seriously for a quality projector and all recommendations and suggestions would be extremely welcome."


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RE: It is interesting to read David Hardy's latest comments

#2 by Maurice Leakey , Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:39 am

My largest collection is on 16mm. 1496 titles, of these, there are 242 features. But I have been collecting on 16mm for many more years than on Super 8.
Andrew will shudder at this.
I live alone and thoroughly enjoy all my films and projectors, also including 9.5mm on silent and sound.


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RE: It is interesting to read David Hardy's latest comments

#3 by Andrew Woodcock , Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:47 am

That is all that matters ultimately Maurice.

My comments are purely based on people thinking the grass is greener elsewhere. You enjoy all of the gauges for your own reasons and so does David currently, but older films now are beginning to come to the end of their serviceable lifespan in many cases now and therefore prints released and manufactured towards the end of the film era as we know it, are the ones which will undoubtedly last the test of time over the years that lie ahead.

I doubt David will for example find a newer Polyester print of GWTW on 16mm versus the one he is currently sat on from Derann, that's all.
Is he likely to find or even wish to pay for an IB Tech version on 16mm, even if one could be found?
Somehow I doubt it.

To enjoy each and all is one thing, to put aside the Gauge which offers the better titles from the later years on Polyester LPP and with stereo capability, well that is entirely another thing!

I know I would never swap, that's for certain!!

BTW Maurice,..to enjoy all of that lot you are currently sat on, you must keep many many late nights, that's all that I can say.
There simply isn't enough hours in a day!!


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RE: It is interesting to read David Hardy's latest comments

#4 by Dave Guest , Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:52 pm

I have over 4000 features and over 2000 shorts on 16mm . 200 x 9.5 and over 500 super 8 films features and cut downs and over 80 projectors


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RE: It is interesting to read David Hardy's latest comments

#5 by Andrew Woodcock , Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:08 pm

Even more late nights than Maurice then David! 😂😂

80 projectors in my world would mean 75 headaches.
I'd simply never have the time to run and maintain the vast vast majority of them.

In fact I cannot even think of more than a dozen or so machines I'd even like to own on Super 8mm.


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RE: It is interesting to read David Hardy's latest comments

#6 by David Alligan , Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:59 pm

Hello Dave

When will you be selling your 500 super 8 features

Dave A


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RE: It is interesting to read David Hardy's latest comments

#7 by Dave Guest , Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:11 pm

in the summer


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RE: It is interesting to read David Hardy's latest comments

#8 by Andrew Woodcock , Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:29 pm

We await with great anticipation David!

Screenshots galore will secure you your very best prices.


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RE: It is interesting to read David Hardy's latest comments

#9 by Andrew Woodcock , Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:02 pm

Hearing all of that racket was never part of the fun or thrill to my ears btw Mr Hardy and never would be!


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RE: It is interesting to read David Hardy's latest comments

#10 by Dave Guest , Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:58 pm

once all my super 8 films have been sceened fully they will be advertised on the forums if no sales I will put them on ebay but it will be well into the summer


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RE: It is interesting to read David Hardy's latest comments

#11 by Vidar Olavesen , Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:39 pm

Look forward to your lists


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RE: It is interesting to read David Hardy's latest comments

#12 by Tom Photiou , Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:26 pm

Jeepers Maurice and Dave G, that is one loony amount of films, do you get to see the same one twice?


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RE: It is interesting to read David Hardy's latest comments

#13 by David Roberts , Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:52 pm

If I had more space,i would collect 16mm too. I collect older British titles,David Lean etc and some of my prints are not that good,often soft focus and burnt out highlights.These are films I might find on the bigger guage,probably for less money than my super 8 prints cost.
I also like the idea of optical sound. Every time I clean my projectors,its mostly brown oxide that comes from them and seems to get everywhere.
Of course with a small hobby room,and sat next to the projector,16mm would be madness,even if I had a 20mm lens.



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RE: It is interesting to read David Hardy's latest comments

#14 by Andrew Woodcock , Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:23 pm

Ideally you'd need a very big room and a booth David to be able to benefit from the larger gauges.

For older films and prints, it seems to matter none which gauge you collect them on. If they were only ever printed on acetate stock many many years ago, the potential for problems tend to be the same now as time marches on.
The only real difference is you are perhaps far less likely to bump into library print issues on Super 8mm than with the larger gauge, otherwise the issues and watch outs are about the same I'd expect.

"Patched up" prints as Kevin and Nigel pointed out over on Film-Tech recently, tends to be a prevalent and almost unique issue among 16mm films, especially features, so this plus the additional necessary splices also adds to the potential of troublesome issues found on the larger gauge.

For me personally, I have a real dislike for optical sound films due to its severe frequency limitations so on any gauge I'd much rather have magnetic prints.
Also far greater versatility with magnetic stripes.

Given the choice, every film I'd own would be myler, magnetic and low fade.


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RE: It is interesting to read David Hardy's latest comments

#15 by David Roberts , Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:25 am

I know what you mean about the limitations of optical sound Andrew.
mind you,these old super 8 magnetics I have often don't have great sound,and looking at the stripe itself tonight on one of them,this appears to be in poor shape,quite rough and patchy.
When I had an elmo st1200,I had one optical short,and it sounded quite good.Also,it was a very sharp picture,and I think this is helped by the lack of a stripe.The film is flatter in the gate.I do find when cleaning films or projectors,I get lots of brown oxide coming off,probably because of the age of my prints.Not to worry,its still great fun!



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RE: It is interesting to read David Hardy's latest comments

#16 by Andrew Woodcock , Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:45 am

For whatever the reasons, I did find the oxide residue built up quicker in the early days of mostly using my t610 than I seem to experience nowadays David.
The capstan roller in particular required regular cleaning and isn't something I notice much at all these days.
The FilmGuard now quite possibly keeps the capstan shaft and pressure roller moist and perhaps therefore stops any noticeable build up, I really don't know for sure?

I only find myself regularly cleaning the actual sound head yokes and just the gate aperture plates these days with a blower brush. Occasionally the lens also with a lens cloth.
Most else seems to take care of itself but admittedly I am not using my Bauer machines as much these days as I once did.

The flatness focussing issues caused from uneven stripe is really only an issue with front sprung pressure plate designs, so again, of late, it isn't something I notice or even experience these days in all honesty.

Some optical sound films I own border on being perfectly reasonable for sound quality, namely Lethal Weapon and A Fish Called Wanda instantly spring to mind but even on these, as soon as a musical accompaniment follows a dialogue passage in the film, it's limitations are clearly there for all to hear.

If you compare these sections to similar musical sections in a well recorded magnetic track, it's night and day in its difference in quality.

The sound of music on Optical Sound would probably be like nails down a chalkboard on sections of highly pitched pieces of music such as Do-Re-Mi etc.


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RE: It is interesting to read David Hardy's latest comments

#17 by Tom Photiou , Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:19 pm

Have to say on this,
I mainly collect super 8 and have done for 39 years now, my Brother even longer,
I came into 16mm around 28 years ago by luck. My ex mother in law use to work at a school and when they got rid of there 16mm B & H she bought it home and gave it me. It was a TQ3 specialist. An excellent machine. I bought a few films to use it, Sweeney2, Freebie and the Bean and Rock for Kampuchea, (i regret selling these BIG Time), Eventually my little ones came along so super 8 was what i concentrated on, Roll on many years later i brought a bigger house for us all but although i expanded hugely on super 8 the 16mm remained stagnant, in fact i sold off all three films to raise a little cash, stupid decision as i had a projector with nothing to view.
Then one of my old lecturers came into work one day and asked if i still collected "those old film things", i replied yes and he took me to the boot of his car and took out an Eiki NT1. I took it home and my goodness it was like a sewing machine. For the size of this projector it is quite when correctly adjusted and serviced, i was very surprised just how quite this one was. The bell and Howell was much noisier and not a projector i enjoyed sitting next to, the B & H was eventually given away, (another stupid error on my part).
As you may know we have recently enjoyed a bit of re-surge in 16mm film collecting but for these reasons,
There are tons of these projectors about, they appear to be relatively simple to put right and parts are still around for them so there life is looking pretty good at this moment in time.
There are so many more titles available on 16mm but like super 8 you have to be careful because of fade but if you purchase from the right sources you can pick some stunning quality films that are just simply not on super 8 or ever have been or will be. The sharpness of the prints are always, (in our cases) pin sharp,.
At present in my current home i am lucky to have a whole lower ground floor, it contains my film den, a well ventilated garage, under stair storage and even a bog for those interval we wee's , oh yes, and a washing machine for the Mrs in the lower ground walk-through

Sound wise, you will all recall a thread i put up on here about "where optical super 8 prints came from". I have a 1200HD with magnetic and optical playback and i later got rid of all my optical prints due to the sound in my opinion being crap. There was always hiss, pops and shite sound, generally very tinny, my Pioneer amp improved it no end but it was still pretty poor, although spaceballs was pretty good, as well as this the films are edited for a more general audience, one of my pet hates. The article mentions that the optical sound on 8mm films being like this is due to some extra process that 16mm prints all have but 8mm films didn't. The company didn't think it worth it for 8mm, The result is simple,
The optical sound on all of our 16mm prints is excellent every time, very high volume, good tone and bass and i dont need to put it through an amp.
I never compare the two gauges as at the end of the day they are completely different beasts, projector noise is different from model to model as they are in super 8, when i plug in a Eumig the motor is whining in the bulb pre heat stage before you even switch it to run to load up a film. I sit next to the Elf and yes it is noisier than my Elmo 1200HD but i take Billy Parsons advice and place a good thick piece of foam under that front foot and it makes things quite different when using the two tier standard stand. You loose that droning you get.
For me collecting 16 will be a little restricted as we do only want 20 good films at most, (it will probably go to 25/30), but as an example of why i went into it look at these titles,
Blue Thunder, polyester colour print, no fade superb booming sound,
Cromwell, no fade polyester print
Waterloo scope Agfa print, (on the way) The stirring music on this is excellent,
Two episodes of Minder, not a mark on either great colour polyester prints
Hannie Caulder 1st class print on the way, £85 no fade and full feature, not abridged
Episodes of The Professionals, Dr in the house, Wyatt Earp,Happy Days, Mash, Happy Days
Kidnapped 1st class scope colour print, again uncut, not abridged
All that Jazz, (The only fading film we have but are selling soon)
Cross of Iron, full feature, excellent colour polyester print,
Pork Chop Hill,Korean war film, uncut.
These films are not to everyone's taste but they are for my Brother and I. Hopefully we will be looking out for some 80s titles and will almost certainly be getting items that wont be available on super 8 unfortunately, but i say fly that cine flag for all gauges

So this is why we have started to look into 16,
In 2018 we are looking at our collection to raise money for Blackpool next year all being well, 8mm will be my main stay for the reasons of many of us, space.


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