Deteriorating mag symptoms - advice please

#1 by Martin Dew , Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:11 pm

I have two secondhand relatively beaten up 400' cutdown titles from film fairs, one is an MGM title and the other U8 (so...late 70s). Neither are rare, and I have no worries about their resale value incidentally!

But both titles are experiencing increasing dropouts, 'pops' and pulsing 'whooshing' sounds on playback.

Are these typical symptoms for a deteriorating mag stripe and, if so, is there any remedy, or are these films just getting to the end of their useful life?


 
Martin Dew
Posts: 562
Points: 2.397
Date registered 10.07.2016
home: Henley-on-Thames
ThankYou 94


RE: Deteriorating mag symptoms - advice please

#2 by Mark Mander ( deleted ) , Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:30 pm

Hi Martin
Could be a number of reasons regarding the sound,might be where they were played and someone could have pressed record for short periods as some projectors won't erase the sound but can give muffled sound afterwards,could be stored by speakers or projectors by the magnet? I've never come across a film that has sound problems that have occurred naturally over time without another factor be involved,Mark


Martin Dew sais Thank You!
Mark Mander

RE: Deteriorating mag symptoms - advice please

#3 by Martin Dew , Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:57 pm

Thanks, Mark. No storage issues, i.e. proximity to magnets etc. It just seems like the MGM one in particular is getting worse over time i.e. more drops in audio level over time.


 
Martin Dew
Posts: 562
Points: 2.397
Date registered 10.07.2016
home: Henley-on-Thames
ThankYou 94


RE: Deteriorating mag symptoms - advice please

#4 by Tom Photiou , Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:25 pm

Can you see any visible problems with the stripe? Does it look like its peeling off or anything?

Have to say as yet, (touch wood), i have not encountered any stripes coming away on any of our films. I will to see in time if any of the brown oxide stripes start playing up in years to come.


Looking for Home alone trailer and Abba Scope trailer


Martin Dew sais Thank You!
 
Tom Photiou
Posts: 5.505
Points: 10.922
Date registered 08.14.2015
home: Plymouth. UK
ThankYou 545


RE: Deteriorating mag symptoms - advice please

#5 by Paul Browning , Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:49 pm

Is it just with one projector Martin, or is this the same with your other projectors ?. Never had a problem with the package type movies, but they are 30 + years old now, old analogue tapes suffer the same fate if incorrectly stored or abused by the machine they are played on, so to compact cassette, the brown residue is there on the rollers and drive mechs, these are just mechanical items, there will be some loss of something over time.......


Martin Dew sais Thank You!
Paul Browning  
Paul Browning
Posts: 1.249
Points: 2.267
Date registered 09.13.2015
ThankYou 181


RE: Deteriorating mag symptoms - advice please

#6 by Martin Dew , Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:20 pm

Tried on both my projectors, Paul, same symptoms. I do see a brown mag staining on both pinch rollers after playing these two titles, so I have to give the rollers a good clean with alcohol after showing.

All my other films seem to be perfectly fine.


 
Martin Dew
Posts: 562
Points: 2.397
Date registered 10.07.2016
home: Henley-on-Thames
ThankYou 94


RE: Deteriorating mag symptoms - advice please

#7 by Vidar Olavesen , Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:29 pm

Give the films a good clean with FilmRenew also might help


 
Vidar Olavesen
Posts: 5.693
Points: 12.949
Date registered 08.02.2015
home: Sarpsborg, Norway
ThankYou 344


RE: Deteriorating mag symptoms - advice please

#8 by Mark Mander ( deleted ) , Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:30 pm

What about giving the films a clean Martin as that may help,Mark


Mark Mander

RE: Deteriorating mag symptoms - advice please

#9 by Martin Dew , Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:39 pm

They're all cleaned with FilmGuard, Mark, and not excessively.

I sometimes wonder if FG doesn't actually aggravate the mag stripe a bit on certain films. I think 2.22 used to do the same back in the day. Some films show a lot of brown stripes on a cleaning cloth, where others show hardly any at all.


 
Martin Dew
Posts: 562
Points: 2.397
Date registered 10.07.2016
home: Henley-on-Thames
ThankYou 94


RE: Deteriorating mag symptoms - advice please

#10 by Mark Mander ( deleted ) , Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:49 pm

Fair enough Martin,if you use too much filmguard it can effect recording but never heard of it lifting or causing problems with the sound,have you had the films long,did they sound ok at one time? Mark


Martin Dew sais Thank You!
Mark Mander

RE: Deteriorating mag symptoms - advice please

#11 by Martin Dew , Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:25 pm

No, neither ever sounded okay - they both had pops and dropouts from day one, but seem to be getting worse, that's all.

I can only assume they were not well-cared for originally.


 
Martin Dew
Posts: 562
Points: 2.397
Date registered 10.07.2016
home: Henley-on-Thames
ThankYou 94


RE: Deteriorating mag symptoms - advice please

#12 by Mark Mander ( deleted ) , Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:52 pm

What films are they? Mark


Mark Mander

RE: Deteriorating mag symptoms - advice please

#13 by Martin Dew , Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:39 pm

It's reel 1 of Where Eagles Dare, which I actually bought last year for £3 (it didn't have parts 2 and 3, so I just use it basically as a test film, as I have other good complete copies).

Second is reel 1 of Jaws 2 x 400ft, both of which I got for free. The reels and boxes were in an absolute state, like stuff had been spilt on it etc., but managed to clean everything up.


 
Martin Dew
Posts: 562
Points: 2.397
Date registered 10.07.2016
home: Henley-on-Thames
ThankYou 94


RE: Deteriorating mag symptoms - advice please

#14 by Paul Browning , Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:07 pm

The stripe is painted on Martin, and its only about one thousandth of an inch thick, if you get your thumb nail you actually scrape it off. I t may have been like this from the outset, the only way to define it would be to try and record something on it with your best recording machine. This will give you an idea of whether its a poor stripe or the bad recording. I f its the former you may not recover it enough to get a decent recording ever, the later might get you back up to good or better than you have.


Martin Dew sais Thank You!
Paul Browning  
Paul Browning
Posts: 1.249
Points: 2.267
Date registered 09.13.2015
ThankYou 181


RE: Deteriorating mag symptoms - advice please

#15 by Philip Murat , Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:39 pm

Hello Martin,

Did you observ many "Brown" dusts in projector film path, more than usual, when you play these films ?

"Painted" stripped films are producting a lot of "brown" dusts when sound trip is poor quality.

let us know



Philip Murat  
Philip Murat
Posts: 201
Points: 264
Date registered 09.08.2017
ThankYou 44

Last edited 11.27.2017 | Top

RE: Deteriorating mag symptoms - advice please

#16 by Martin Dew , Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:58 pm

No, not with these.

I did have a couple of badly paste-striped brand new trailers from a well-known source which I ended up selling on as 'picture only' titles, because the main stripe was literally leaving a spaghetti of brown oxide on the sound pressure plate. I understand that this was caused by newer pasting methods and stock, and Andrew W. was kind enough to explain that some of today's labs and their striping procedures can be hit or miss.


 
Martin Dew
Posts: 562
Points: 2.397
Date registered 10.07.2016
home: Henley-on-Thames
ThankYou 94


RE: Deteriorating mag symptoms - advice please

#17 by Paul Browning , Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:17 pm

its a process that is just that martin, and temperature plays an important part in the application. Both the film and paste need to be acclimatised because if one cold and the other warm the stretching and shrinking can be at both ends of the extreme. The mixture of all the chemicals is also vital, so is the amounts of each chemical and the mix time very important. So its a balancing act really, but it can be done, as we all have the evidence to prove. I think what has been missed is how you would remove a paste strips to redo, this would be hard to get right, some residue left and you would fail again, these lumps and bumps are actually called "gollywogs" its a technical term, I know I didn't believe it either ....


Martin Dew likes this
Paul Browning  
Paul Browning
Posts: 1.249
Points: 2.267
Date registered 09.13.2015
ThankYou 181


RE: Deteriorating mag symptoms - advice please

#18 by Andrew Woodcock ( deleted ) , Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:40 pm

What you're experiencing Martin, is rare.

That's all I can say from my own collection that just about now, covers all types of films from the oldest acetate b/w prints on Super 8 to 200, 400 ft shorts and digests from the 70's through to the most troublesome of lumpy pasted striped films from the later years.

Storage methods, location and conditions do play their part as of course does common sense, projector health and owner activities using said projectors!

Any stripe could and can very very easily, become ruined forever in the wrong hands just as the transparencies also could and can.
For the most part though, thankfully these type of ill treatments and bad practices are at least fairly uncommon and in the right hands, stripe should remain decent if it was even half decent in the first instance, using all good procedures and practices.

I've never known FG damage any kind of stripe but I agree, apply too heavily and it will affect immediately played back sound and it will also not allow the best recordings to be made.
If over applied better to remove some with a dry cloth or allow to dry out for a time before recording a film or screening one.


"C'Mon Baggy, Get With The Beat"


Martin Dew likes this
Andrew Woodcock
Last edited Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:44 pm | Top

RE: Deteriorating mag symptoms - advice please

#19 by Martin Dew , Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:25 am

Yes, I don't think FG has anything to do with it, and I certainly apply it sparingly, and run it through a second time to get rid of excess.

Both those films had pops and drop outs from the start and both had definitely had the record button pressed at a couple of points. These films are old, appallingly scratched and shite, make no mistake, so there's no love lost here. I probably won't attempt to even play them again. They could certainly never be resold, but I did at least try in vain to restore them to their former glory. My search for a good 2 x 400' Jaws will continue.


 
Martin Dew
Posts: 562
Points: 2.397
Date registered 10.07.2016
home: Henley-on-Thames
ThankYou 94


RE: Deteriorating mag symptoms - advice please

#20 by Andrew Woodcock ( deleted ) , Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:28 am

That explains it all Martin thanks, why so many are prepared to offer us all "free complimentary gifts" when buying other films.

I've had my fair share of these also, but typically, they are watched once and scrapped. They cannot even justify their shelf space.

Many have cleary been used only as someone else's test films just to try out yet another new projector to them, offering the all important eternal faith and optimism for the future just before the usual dollop of bitter disappointment and frustration that no doubt ensued

I think we can all nowadays pledge some serious bets on when and where these type of films gained some of their "much loved" lived in qualities from!!


"C'Mon Baggy, Get With The Beat"


Martin Dew likes this
Andrew Woodcock
Last edited Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:41 am | Top

   

Sidney Powell responds after Trump campaign says she is not part of legal team:
Dick Hertz (hurts)

disconnected Reel-Chat Members online 0
Xobor Create your own Forum with Xobor