That Derann paste stripe.

#1 by Tom Photiou , Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:56 pm

Well, i have been reading recently about Deranns paste stripe as opposed to pre striped etc. Also of course have to appreciate that it was either this or no more new sound film releases. I have also experienced the difference inn the sound quality with Madagascar penguins and also the spider trailer i bought, great base etc but definatly newer stripe, it has the slightest warble on the sound, most people dont hear it but i do.
Anyway, reading about the way this was all made my question is, how good or bad is this stuff on our sound-heads? I do see a lot of reports that the oxide stripes are often uneven and lumpy with thuds on the soundtrack


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RE: That Derann paste stripe.

#2 by Andrew Woodcock ( deleted ) , Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:07 pm

Yes Tom, it is undoubtedly more abrasive on our sound heads and path parts, but I find using FilmGuard really helps with this issue.

As you say quite rightly, it was this or nothing so it isn't too bad especially after recording them again. It's certainly far better than nothing anyhow when you consider some of the top top titles released within that era.

All of what you speak of and more besides can be an issue with a pasted stripe.
Recording quality wise, the Brown paste is far better than the Grey in my experiences, though still, I've had original recordings even on Grey that have been ok.
It seemed to vary wildly what results you got almost from one month to another.
Who knows why this amount of variation was ever the case except to say we all know now that the recording equipment itself was nigh on completely worn out towards the end.
This would include around the time Madagascar was printed, striped and recorded
among many other famous titles like end of days etc.
The recording equipment had been heavily used in those halcyon later years and it really began to show towards the end.
By then you were simply better off doing your own almost always.


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Last edited Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:40 pm | Top

RE: That Derann paste stripe.

#3 by Paul Browning , Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:21 pm

Derek was let down by Kodak badly, when they supplied the formula for the paste stripe by leaving out a vital ingredient, so cost time and money experimenting with different mixes. They got it right eventually but I think it left a bitter taste in his mouth. Have you read anywhere or heard from anyone who knew where the vital piece of the puzzle came from, I know from Derek himself he was fuming about it. I suppose Kodak spent much money and time getting it right too, its a fine balance of many things to apply that stripe consistently flat and mixed exactly right each time, as the mix is drying out as soon as it hits the atmosphere, much like the glue to stick the stripe to film, temperature's of the film and tape need to be acclimatised, else one is more rigid than the other. Derek and his team worked miracles with there tiny budget and only his enthusiasm kept it on track. I would have liked to have seen Kodak's setup close up, to see how they got there stripe so flat and sonic after all this time......


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RE: That Derann paste stripe.

#4 by Andrew Woodcock ( deleted ) , Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:31 pm

Yes I remember reading with complete admiration, the sheer endeavour and total commitment Derek obsessively devoted himself, to finally concocting his paste formula without the full cooperation of Kodak.
All of that money on wasted stock, all of those relentless hours without success.

I cannot think of anyone else in this hobby at that time who would have placed anything like the same level of commitment, patience and determination to finally give us a two tracked Mylar product that people of today, can no longer supply.

He was a one off was Derek and we are fortunate to have what we have from those later years.
Anyone else would have simply thrown the towel in long before a solution was found.


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RE: That Derann paste stripe.

#5 by Eivind Mork , Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:32 am

I have never heard this story about Derann and recipe from Kodak. Interesting!

And I have never thought about pasted stripes being harder to the sound heads. That makes sense, though!



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RE: That Derann paste stripe.

#6 by Philip Murat , Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:53 am

Hello Folks,

May be I miss something, but I understand DERANN could have produced prints on paste-striped film stock ?

If , yes this is a very bad new because I have a terrible experience for this kind of "low cost" sound stripe.
(Paste Stripe Exemples : Techno-Film , HEFA-Film)


Paste Stripe movies, means :
- Terrible for heads life duration (Heads irregular wears)
- Stripes wear easily (you can observe more brown dusts deposit than classical stripes)
- Sound Quality fades as machine is used for hours and for prints of course
- Issue can not be fixed

So I suggest films Owners to inform customers when a film is to sell, because I never buy such a print even it is a low price......



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Last edited 09.18.2017 | Top

RE: That Derann paste stripe.

#7 by Tom Photiou , Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:47 pm

I do believe the prints of the Jurassic park feature had reports of parts of the stripe coming off.
I did also read Derek's item on the search for the perfect mix, i believe a sum of £10,000 was mentioned in the actual costs of ruined prints and materials. Certainly Kodak did the dirty on him, at the end of the day why they simply stopped it was beyond me as Derann were releasing a fair number of films at hat time so the business was there. Obviously they didn't think it was enough.


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RE: That Derann paste stripe.

#8 by Paul Browning , Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:54 pm

Hi Tom, do you still have the article on the search for the perfect mix ?, I'd like to see that if you could find it.....


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RE: That Derann paste stripe.

#9 by Martin Dew , Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:45 pm

Yes, Tom, I've had similar problems with several stereo trailers from Reel Image. The worst print left a pile of oxide spaghetti on my sound head pressure plate after only a couple of plays, and the others just started fading rapidly.

I don't know much of the history of all this as a new collector, but Andrew W. advised me to steer clear of these newer releases. Pity.


 
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RE: That Derann paste stripe.

#10 by David Alligan , Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:46 pm

Derek done a deal with the German labs to swap some of his features with some of the German labs features, the german labs didn't have any stripe on them and the plan was that Derek would stripe them and he asked if I could record them, which I agreed to do, as far as I can remember they were laminate prints, the prints turned up and I started to record them, then the problems started the stripe just peeled off and went on my sound head of my GS1200, they were 10 prints in total and not one was any good, the stripe just literaly peeled off in feet.
I sent them back to Derek, I don't know what he done with them, I think he just sold them at mute.
Dave


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RE: That Derann paste stripe.

#11 by Philip Murat , Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:49 pm

Does somebody has an idea of approximative date for the change of prints material (Classical stripes to Paste stripes) ?

95 ?, 97?

Do I had to understand there was a stripe problem (peeling off) for classical prints too ?



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Last edited 09.18.2017 | Top

RE: That Derann paste stripe.

#12 by Tom Photiou , Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:36 pm

Paul .ill dig the article out and scan in on here


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RE: That Derann paste stripe.

#13 by Paul Browning , Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:48 pm

Thank's Tom....


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RE: That Derann paste stripe.

#14 by Andrew Woodcock ( deleted ) , Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:42 pm

Yes, it's in one of the earlier FFTC editions but without checking through them all again, I don't know the exact number off the top of my head.

It's a double page spread, I remember that much, and it really made me realize just how much the Super 8mm community owed a huge thank you to Derek for sustaining something all else were abandoning in droves.

Referring back to Phil's questions in point #11, I don't think there ever was an exact point in time when the switch came about from pre laminated stock to pasted.
Derek bought as much of the Agfa, Kodak and Fuji stock that he could lay his hands on as the big players decided to pull the plug on sound stock.
This lasted quite a while by all accounts given the quantities he managed to secure.
Derek was quick to quash any rumour mongering that occurred at the time that and assured everybody that Super 8mm would still be around for years to come.

From all of the films I have ever purchased from Derann's back catalogues, I have only ever had one film which proved to be bad enough to need to try and have re-
striped.
This eventually proved disastrous for that one and only print as it proved impossible to ever get it any better unfortunately.
This print though, remains my one and only disappointment despite purchasing hundreds of others now, and many of those come from the era when it's 50/ 50 chance you may get it on laminated or you may get it on pasted.

Madagascar is one such example as is Dancing In The Street for those that have one or ever heard a print of about as bad as things typically get.
These can be made much much better if recorded and even if not everyone has this ability, they are still prized prints in anybody's collection now given the era these were still being made in and given outstanding print quality in those days.

As I said earlier, later prints especially those toward the very end, can leave a little to be desired in their original state regarding the sound department, but if it's a choice between having prints at this standard where SQ is concerned, or not having them at all, then certainly from my own perspective, all of Derek's outstanding commitment to Super 8mm film is very gratefully appreciated by myself and certainly can never be considered a wasted attempt.


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Last edited Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:20 pm | Top

RE: That Derann paste stripe.

#15 by David Ollerearnshaw , Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:50 pm

One of my prints had the damm stuff coming loose in places. Back in the 70's I'm sure I had some black leader paste striped. Might have been by Film Facilities (Magnetic) And looking back though old Movie Makers Zonal offered a striping service.


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RE: That Derann paste stripe.

#16 by Andrew Woodcock ( deleted ) , Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:22 pm

I've actually purchased quite a few "home" striped films before now which I've experienced are far more likely to "peel" away due to poor gluing than any I've had from Derann striped films.

These too were on prints available in the 70's and were on acetate stock each time.


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Last edited Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:23 pm | Top

RE: That Derann paste stripe.

#17 by Philip Murat , Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:38 pm

Thanks Andrew for your answer.

I understand there was something like a (limited) batch of paste-stripped prints producted later at the end of S8 DERANN business (Years 2000 ??) or, may be, a couple of years before.

So , as you point out, considering title rarity and subject, this is a personnal choice to collect or not in despite of this problem.

Considering prices observed at this time for many prints , I suggest vendors to advise future customers for configuration (Pre-laminated / Paste-Stripped) for films to sell.
This is to prevent customer from some possible disappointment.
But it is truth that sometimes, due to some factory defects (or glue quality as well) you can observe a stripe peeling of phenomenon, it seems to be a very rare situation though.


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RE: That Derann paste stripe.

#18 by Tom Photiou , Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:57 pm

Reading all the feedback here is an eye opener. I know its been around for years but i am glad i only have a very few films with this oxide / chemical stripe. The result on the heads and pressure pads can be good. Its a bit like that green cleaning leader you could but. Any films i have with that on it now gets it chopped out. Very abrasive.


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RE: That Derann paste stripe.

#19 by Andrew Woodcock ( deleted ) , Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:33 pm

You'll have no mither with any of these Tom so long as you give them a good coat of FG first.

Sandpaper they are not.


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Last edited Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:33 pm | Top

RE: That Derann paste stripe.

#20 by Tom Photiou , Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:52 pm

Thats good Andy, have to say Derann use to recommend cleaning a film before its first showing when new.


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RE: That Derann paste stripe.

#21 by Andrew Woodcock ( deleted ) , Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:11 pm

not using their stuff they didn't!😂😂

Or at least they ought not to have done if they ever did!
Not unless they wanted endless reels of films returned to them all needing re striping.


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Last edited Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:12 pm | Top

RE: That Derann paste stripe.

#22 by Andrew Woodcock ( deleted ) , Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:18 pm

#22 by Paul Browning , 21 minutes ago
Tom I would not be too concerned over the paste stripe mate, remember all the Walton prints of tom & jerry and most of there features were paste stripe. I looked at one film randomly, and measuring to paste stripe and its flatness was almost flawless, no curvature of the paste like you would expect, so very well applied. Not sure how the filmguard can help this, other than lubrication of transport over the heads, would not improve the sound dynamic range at all, its transport is similar to a tape recorder, with its rubber transport rollers, if you applied filmguard to this, it would slip through the drive and you would get wow and flutter as the rubber drive would be coated with this slippy stuff. It measures about a one thousandth of an inch (.001"), I think a rizzla cigarette paper is .0015".......

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Last edited Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:25 pm | Top

RE: That Derann paste stripe.

#23 by Andrew Woodcock ( deleted ) , Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:22 pm

#23 by Andrew Woodcock , 14 minutes ago
Doesn't improve the sound in any way but it does eliminate virtually any chance of any extra abrasion to the heads, pressers or film path as a result of the undoubtedly more abrasive pasted stripe over the laminated perfectly and consistently smooth kind.


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Last edited Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:25 pm | Top

RE: That Derann paste stripe.

#24 by Paul Browning , Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:29 am

Its the same paste, just on a strip then glued to the film base. Most cassette tape machines suffer the same without the film base present. The structure of the paste is completely different to the "red rust" that it appears to be, which it completely unsuitable for sound recording because of the shape of the particles, they're rock like, where as the film paste is more cigar shaped, as this cultivated under lab conditions, if anything the film's tough film base makes it worse in both instance's because of the rigid base.


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