What Do You Think?

#1 by Gwyn Morgan , Thu Jan 19, 2017 7:31 pm

Now before everyone jumps down my throat for this item,please remember this is just up for discussion nothing more than that at this time.
In the light of Del"s item on a film he purchased that was rather splicey to say the least,I was wondering if there should be a section set aside where any comments could be made regarding the selling of films etc which when they arrive are not as described.
Now obviously this could open a "whole Can of worms"and things could get out of control with people getting upset and the wrong things being said etc.But it could also work the other way with everyone using common sense about who and what is written.
Now it may be that everyone is happy to as we say" let sleeping dogs lie" and if a problem arises as in Dels case he has put it out there for all members to see and so be it that is all that is needed as and when a problem occurs.
Please remember this is only an item up for comment,no more no less than that.


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RE: What Do You Think?

#2 by Andrew Woodcock , Thu Jan 19, 2017 7:37 pm

I'm easy either way Gwyn. I can see benefits of name and shame as it were, but it's also a very small community now, so I can equally see how divides could be damaging and detrimental in this era to our hobby.


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RE: What Do You Think?

#3 by Gwyn Morgan , Thu Jan 19, 2017 7:43 pm

As you rightly say Andrew it could go either way,personally I'm with you,I just thought I would ask the question and see what the response was if any.


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RE: What Do You Think?

#4 by Andrew Woodcock , Thu Jan 19, 2017 8:06 pm

And its a good question to ask Gwyn!😊


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RE: What Do You Think?

#5 by Michael Lattavo , Thu Jan 19, 2017 10:08 pm

That's a good question, and I understand the can of worms issue. I don't know - I would think that members would be pretty honest with their descriptions, seems to be more of the vague ebaers with "no way to view the film" who are suspect....and would then have to wonder, would such people really care about negative feedback on a forum?


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RE: What Do You Think?

#6 by Vidar Olavesen , Thu Jan 19, 2017 10:11 pm

Probably not, but it could warn the forum members of who to be careful with.


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RE: What Do You Think?

#7 by Tim Duncan , Thu Jan 19, 2017 10:17 pm

Maybe a list of sellers you ARE happy with, and a list of those that have disappointed you, should be enough without going into ugly details about the incident. If an eBay seller has less than 100% feedback, I go in and investigate what was said and make my buying decision on that.


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RE: What Do You Think?

#8 by Andrew Woodcock , Thu Jan 19, 2017 10:23 pm

It can indeed open a can of worms...or should that have said film...all over the floor!

Anyone remember "Core-Gate"? 😂😂😂😂😏


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RE: What Do You Think?

#9 by Paul Browning , Thu Jan 19, 2017 10:26 pm

Remember the Terminator feature on ebay that went for a huge sum of money, and all because the seller was bloody honest with his description of the film. This was an eye
opener for many of us on here and on the other channel, and all Del is asking is the seller should have been more honest with the description, had he done this it would have maybe sold for a lot less. Honesty is the best policy.



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RE: What Do You Think?

#10 by Del Phillipson ( deleted ) , Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:16 pm

I'm going to be honest, the seller of my film is not a member of this or the other film forum, he is an experienced collector though who knew exactly what he was doing, he knew damn well that advertising a film with that amount of splices would indeed devalue the film so he thought sell it and hope I'm happy with it.

With regards to name and shame, we have all been around the block a few times and pretty well know who the good guys are and the not so good guys, I do think that the guys on the forums are a hell of a lot better than the sellers on ebay. Yesterday I asked about The Heroes Of Telemark on ebay and asked about the colour as the seller said it had some fade, to be told in fact the colour had faded badly and was near sepia and I'm thinking to myself "well why the hell not put that in your listing". I think I'm about done with buying off ebay now after this debacle, stick to buying from people I know if future.


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RE: What Do You Think?

#11 by Andrew Woodcock , Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:25 pm

I've pretty much arrived at that same conclusion Del based on my last few purchases of films off the bay.

I will continue to buy things like reels, splice tape and such likes when the price is right, but for films now, it will either be from guys I bought off previously or the few dealers that still remain.
Then at least, if you are left dissatisfied, at least it can be returned without arbitration and the likes.

Once in a blue moon, a new seller crops up selling after bereavement and the likes, but as for the rest of it, I feel we are now wasting our time and they wasting theirs.


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RE: What Do You Think?

#12 by Tom Photiou , Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:34 pm

This is a good subject, i think as far as bad sellers are, well these are probably non forum members on ebay, these are often warned about on the other forum however, this one of Dells is really off for a guy who is a collector, as everyone agrees,(& i am sure even ebay will see this), he should definatly have said about the amount of splices in it. I would certainly know all the long term people on here if they were selling a film i know it would be well trusted. However, we have occasionally seen a name pop up, probably a sneeker, offering films, i have to say i would probably leave these well alone.
If Dell gets a good outcome then of course it would be up to Dell whether or not to name the seller, but where this occurs the warning would be enough without going into nasty rants,(i myself have been guilty of this).
but with the high prices,(at the moment) of derann feature titles i think we all could definatly do with a new section for "beware of this ebay seller".It would need to be well monitored and each name shamed would need to be accompanied with the reason why, the film listed and everything wrong with the listing, this way we can all be aware of the "scum of the universe" who are out to take the piss out of us collectors.


Have i told anyone i'm after Die Hard?


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RE: What Do You Think?

#13 by Gwyn Morgan , Fri Jan 20, 2017 12:15 am

Thank you all for your contributions so far,seems like it is a can of film maybe nitrate"................
Perhaps as suggested there is room for some sort of name and shame but I do hope more members contribute so that we get a good overview of people's thoughts on this.📽📽


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RE: What Do You Think?

#14 by Mark Mander , Fri Jan 20, 2017 1:24 am

Interesting topic but for me I know already who to buy from and who not to, I also know who not to sell to as well, I've been caught out in the past on ebay, from forum members and dealers.

Even on this very topic it seems misleading though straight away, this may upset some but Del mentioned the Heroes of Telemark on ebay and he said about the fade on the print, well it's mentioned 4 or more times in the description, I know the seller and he always gives a very honest description and this has been mentioned on the forums before about his honesty, he sold another film with well mentioned faults that sold for a very good price. The fade was clearly in print as i say at least 4 times so nothing was misleading to me so this would leave me to believe little or no colour left, Mark.


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RE: What Do You Think?

#15 by Andrew Woodcock , Fri Jan 20, 2017 6:51 am

Straight away, Mark here proves just how subjective this topic can be.
It really does depend on a person's outlook as to what and where expectation levels are or should be.

I've yet to begin selling any film this time around really, but already, I am under no illusions that a future "care taker" of any films I own may not be anything like as tolerant or even as laissez faire surrounding the monetary aspect of these things as I have been over recent years with the films.

Time and time again, I'm inundated by collectors asking me this question or that question about how much they should pay for this film or another.
Often I see requests for films and equipment that I know damn well, that when they do surface, will not be snapped up in the manner I have over these past few years.

I understand for many that money is particular tight in this time period, I equally understand that for many they are looking for that one perfect print.
But we do have to always remain highly realistic about what we can expect to find now in this very late stage of the hobby and equally what we can expect to pay when we do find just the right print on very odd occasions.

Mark makes the interesting point of how even as a seller these days, he has become selective. Something to further add into the mix now is that collectors obviously see this game now as a two way battlefield and even buyers seemingly, can be "bad" buyers?
I've yet to face this minefield, but no doubt if or when I were to begin selling,I'd perhaps empathize with Marks point on this one. Who knows?

It remains to be seen!

For me personally, I was just always completely delighted to see that "golden ticket" surface, more or less no matter what the cost.
For countless others, it then becomes a case of quoting how much the alternative viewing arrangements can be obtained for.

It's an expensive pastime now, and only ever was truth be told. That even applied in the good ole days when films were plenty and pockets were fuller.


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RE: What Do You Think?

#16 by Eivind Mork , Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:11 am

This is an interesting topic. This seems to be very subjective, as has been pointed out. Off course we have extreme cases, but quite often it will be quite different opinions on this matter. What is an acceptable print? What is needed to make a print excellent, very good, good etc? Some sellers have a description on how they categorize their films on eBay, and that is very helpful. Making a separate section for this could very quickly end up as a worm hole, so I don't think this is a good idea. But I do understand why the question is asked. We all want to know what to be aware of. Hopefully sellers will see that you can still get good money if you are honest, like the seller of Terminator. And I prefer many screenshots compared to just a cover shot and a description of the fade. Pictures can lie (cameras can adjust color if it thinks it is necessary), but this says a lot more than just words. For expensive prints, the number of splices etc could be numbered, and we would have no discussion. So I think like Tim on this one, and would prefer naming the good sellers. We all need to let out some steam some time, but I believe it will be for the better if we are very careful of mentioning names.

A good trick is to buy film for 10-15 USD like I do the most. Then it doesn't matter too much if I am fooled by the seller, hehe ;-)



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RE: What Do You Think?

#17 by Tom Photiou , Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:27 am

Out of interest, what is a bad buyer?


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RE: What Do You Think?

#18 by Mark Mander , Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:55 am

Well for me a bad buyer is someone I've had dealings with in the past, someone on ebay who bids and doesn't pay, I've had occasions when I have proven that a film was delivered after the buyer said it wasn't, I've offered free films and equipment to be let down by them not turning up to collect and never hearing back at all from them (forum member), doing a recording job for free as a favour to a forum member to be then sent a pile of crap film I bought off eBay from them well under described and then the sold as seen quote pops up. Selling a film to be told it's not as described to then have a different film sent back (and they did try and buy something else after) and finally someone who stole a film at a cine fair I had a stall at, I think this gives me good reason why I choose not to sell to some, Mark


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RE: What Do You Think?

#19 by Gwyn Morgan , Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:54 am

Thank you Mark I thought I was the only one with people not paying (forum member) hence I would say that constitutes a bad payer.
There was no conversation nothing so I now am very carful as to what or to whom I would sell anything to,in fact I have not sold anything " public" for months and will only deal with those I know are genuine......Rant over.....
Anyway back to the original post,seems to be causing quite a conversation piece,I did think we could have a section saying how great someone is,but I guess we all know who the good ones are.
Have a good day🎞🎞🎞🎞📽📽😃


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RE: What Do You Think?

#20 by Del Phillipson ( deleted ) , Fri Jan 20, 2017 10:26 am

Mark, just to clarify, I did say I had seen the film as faded, I just asked how faded it was. The seller came back and said it was faded to sepia/red, now that make a big difference to me, there can be fade and there can be fade, sepia/red is a whole new subject, just to clarify, there is no mention of the print going sepia/red. I have also bought from this seller in the past and would trust him, he's one of the better ones

An ebay seller black list would be a good idea, but again no need for abuse just a reason.



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RE: What Do You Think?

#21 by Mark Mander , Fri Jan 20, 2017 10:47 am

Del,
Then to be fair you should know how he lists things, he would have said some fade with other colours left etc but the film said faded and that was it. He hadn't mislead in my opinion but then again i know how he lists things. You then in this post at the end of your first message threw your toys out the pram, if you bought the film and was mislead then i can understand your point of toy throwing,Mark



 
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RE: What Do You Think?

#22 by Del Phillipson ( deleted ) , Fri Jan 20, 2017 11:38 am

Mark, I have maybe bought the odd 1 or 2 things off him over the last few years so to be fair would have no idea how he lists things. My original post was honest and after the crap I am currently going through I have to admit it was my first thought and so be it, now without going through this crap I would probably have thought "fair enough". But I 100% do think that a lot of ebay sellers are far from economical with the truth with regards to the condition of prints with the fear of devaluing it and as one or two have mentioned just hoping that the buyer doesn't complain.

Yes I agree, the seller hasn't mislead, he stated the film had faded colour, he has just been economical with the truth as I don't see sepia/red as faded, do you? and sorry if you thought I had spit my toy out of the pram, I'm 53 and cannot remember that far back when I could possibly actually throw my toys out of my pram and that wasn't a toy throwing session it was just frustration and I'm sure we have all been there.



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RE: What Do You Think?

#23 by Mark Mander , Fri Jan 20, 2017 12:00 pm

Totally agree Del with your frustration with your recent purchase and i would feel the same, as a buyer you have more rights than a seller on ebay, not sure about the foreign ebay sites though but am sure you will be sorted out financially and the whole experience can be shelved. Many ebayers are a little vague with descriptions as we know but it's the messing about and bad feelings plus the disappointment that gets me but that's part of the hobby now i guess as some features can command great prices, Mark


 
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RE: What Do You Think?

#24 by Martin Dew , Fri Jan 20, 2017 12:27 pm

What amazes me is how variable films are, despite descriptions and prices. I bought a scope copy of a 16mm feature on eBay for £15 and it was in beautiful condition. No scratches, hardly any splices, long leaders. Stunning.

Then, I paid substantially more for an allegedly 'condensed' version of a 16mm feature film from an online seller. It was not condensed at all, but was reels 1, 3 and 4, missing 2 completely. If people would just be upfront with their descriptions, it would save all of us time and money.

I posted a 16mm feature-length documentary on eBay for auction, but described every little imperfection, splice, picture anomaly etc. and provided lots of photos. It ended up selling for way more than I had anticipated.

So...it just goes to show: honesty pays.


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RE: What Do You Think?

#25 by Del Phillipson ( deleted ) , Fri Jan 20, 2017 12:43 pm

Exactly Martin, but what we are finding now on ebay is far too many inheritors of films, absolutely clueless in what they are selling but totally seduced by the prices films are selling for. I recently purchased 3 films of a guy who lives quite close by to where I live, he said I couldn't pick the films up personally as I would upset his dogs I thought "bloody hell, I just want to pick the films up, not come to tea" anyhow the films arrived and one of them wasn't even super 8 it was standard 8 it also twisted like a snake, the second film (Derann short 200') had a strong yellow tint about every 10 seconds, the third (Derann cartoon) had no sound whatsoever and what a performance I had sending them back, not good at all.

The frustrations continue Mark with the seller's latest message, all I would say is the guy is in total denial, even now hinting that this was probably how Derann sent it to him


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