So have a read through this little lot, if you will!

#1 by Andrew Woodcock , Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:07 pm

So over on the other forum Rob has been having clutch trouble again as you may have read. Graham, God bless him in his infinite wisdom, popped up there with a suggestion for Rob which I will allow you to read from the posted link to thread here.

Anyhow Graham is not a member of this forum but if he was, this recent encounter I suggested here recently regarding a short new (to me) film i acquired only earlier this week tells us all in just a few simple photographs what i have been saying for years and continually get vilified for speaking the factual truth on the matter!

Take a look at this link and then please see photographs below...

http://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ub...ic;f=1;t=011039

vlcsnap-2016-10-19-14h18m05s171.png - Bild entfernt (keine Rechte)vlcsnap-2016-10-19-14h18m22s109.png - Bild entfernt (keine Rechte)vlcsnap-2016-10-19-14h18m38s19.png - Bild entfernt (keine Rechte)vlcsnap-2016-10-19-14h19m05s13.png - Bild entfernt (keine Rechte)vlcsnap-2016-10-19-14h19m33s47.png - Bild entfernt (keine Rechte)

No prizes for guessing which machines this print has been previously viewed on!
I gotta say I had dozens of examples like this myself emerging from my past experiences in the hobby and this really has become ONE of the trademarks associated with certain machines throughout many different users of them.

So I say again to you Graham..... Are you sure?

Note: This is posted as a means to give greater understanding of the watchouts in the hobby, not as a brand bashing exercise as people conclude!

Many people seemingly manage to avoid these potential pitfalls by having all of the necessary skills and spares to do so.
I urge all users to do likewise to keep our remaining otherwise quality prints, clean for the future generations.


Time and time again, new examples come to market of valuable lessons that simply have not been learned. Hopefully the more that is spoken about on this topic, the greater the preventative awareness ensues.


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RE: So have a read through this little lot, if you will!

#2 by Andrew Woodcock , Wed Oct 19, 2016 11:19 pm

Not a murmur!!

No feelings one way or another on the preservation of the last remaining decent prints out there ???

Well, well, well!


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RE: So have a read through this little lot, if you will!

#3 by Andrew Woodcock , Thu Oct 20, 2016 12:26 am

Unbelievable!!!

Out of concern for the prints that still are excellent, I asked a similar question over on film tech with regard to the newly 3D printed guides that include a roller or two purchased from E.V.E.

I simply asked, has anyone been using these and what their experiences were in use, since fitted after a lengthy period of time.

Guess what I got back?

Nothing.


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RE: So have a read through this little lot, if you will!

#4 by Vidar Olavesen , Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:22 am

I am a bit worried about these parts myself. How little a small extra drop of plastic would of harm. Would it be "shiny" like an original part and 100% smooth?


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RE: So have a read through this little lot, if you will!

#5 by Eivind Mork , Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:33 am

Sometimes the father duties has to get priority before reading the forum. And when my son finally was in bed I was so tired so I crashed on the sofa and got to bed early. So therefore you get a response from me this late :-)

This is interesting. This is one thing I don't know enough about, how to avoid making scratches etc by maintaining the projector properly. This was caused by the drive belt dissolving and sending dust on the film you mean? I just replaced a drive belt in my own. Can't remember where I bought it. I believe it was Van Eck. I should probably pay attention to how it is in a while.

I don't clean much myself in the projector unless I see dust in on the screen. I haven't thought enough about this. Do you clean often, and how du you do it? Blowing air, or brush? And do you clean the whole path, or just around the gate?



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RE: So have a read through this little lot, if you will!

#6 by Andrew Woodcock , Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:38 am

Hallelujah! Thanks Vidar!!

I think the idea is Vidar, only the actual rollers come into contact with the film itself on these modified guides.

I'd hope they are relieved on the actual surface so only the very edges of the rollers touch the films surface and even then, only the stripe, not the actual frame.

I don't believe you can better the metal input guides that are available from Wittners and FFR for the first input guide, but the second guide remains an issue unless these parts from Edwin are indeed a success.

This is what I was keen to try and find out.

The only drawback I can foresee surrounding manufacturing guide parts from the 3D method, is the surfaces of the parts themselves, tends to quite textured and to a certain degree, a little bit rough.

If you consider placing these parts plus the originals under a microscope, then the originals would have a texture like vinyl silk emulsion in paint terms, where as the 3D equivalent would look something like Artex when magnified several hundred times.

I've had cams, followers and spindle hubs from Edwins 3D printing services and they are all very strong, durable and precise in their manufacture.
These parts, of course, do not come into contact with the film itself though so their surface texture is not detrimental on any of these particular parts.

If the roller edges can be made smooth, I'd anticipate no issues using these parts so long as the geometry of the rollers is spot on, but it would still be very nice to hear back from an end user for their thoughts and opinions on the matter.


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RE: So have a read through this little lot, if you will!

#7 by Del Phillipson ( deleted ) , Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:47 am

Eivind, I believe you have a GS like me. I'll be honest I tend to brush wherever I can get to after every reel has gone through the projector, it takes about 10 seconds, I thoroughly clean both the projectors I use regularly approximately every 6/8 weeks using Isopropyl and compressed air, also cleaning the lens very carefully. Both projectors have been serviced by our good friend Mr. Parsons and I am also lucky to have the newer mark 3 GS which also has an added roller near the first sprocket (troublesome area I believe). Andrew is right, you should do whatever it takes to protect those wonderful and now very valuable prints as replacing them is near on impossible, as me and Tom are finding out.


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RE: So have a read through this little lot, if you will!

#8 by Andrew Woodcock , Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:56 am

I see Eivind has now replied so I will try to explain these scratches without hopefully being berated by telling it as it is.

Firstly Eivind, these types of marks illustrated above, have nothing at all to do with cleaning or hygiene or drive belts snapping causing debris.
These marks can finish up going right the way through an entire print unless you are lucky enough to spot them early on in show and stop the projector.

They are caused by the films frame being able to "slap" against a stationary object from within a film path.
This is more likely on some machines than others due to their inherent design.

A path which cannot allow anything to possibly come into contact with the films frame beyond threading mode, is a path which can never produce these marks.


These particular marks are caused by loss of loop, particularly at the top loop and inconsistently shaped loops, again particularly at the top loop.
These are not the only kind of marks or scratches that can be found as you are well aware Eivind.
Other types are caused for different reasons, but this particular curved short length scratch to the emulsion side of print,typically in a central area of the frame, is only caused by reasons stated above and I found it to be particularly prevalent on any of the ST1200,s I used to use.

If you can maintain the perfect loop at all times on one of these machines, your films cannot be damaged in this manner,but maintaining a loop relies on a consistent film path and drive throughout.

Floating rollers are a complete no no to facilitate this and small capstan rollers are notoriously poor for controlling the films speed in run.
Add to the equation that our film cleaners induce "slip" in run, then you begin to realise how many things are possible and indeed, highly likely at some point.

Couple this with an odd shaped piece of stationary plastic that is used to assist the film into the gate on thread,and then does NOT move out of harm's way via a linkage as it really should, then you begin to see how easy and highly likely it is for a films frame to come into contact with something it ought not to when in run.

Thread yes, in run...never, if all things are well

This is another reason why manual lace machines like Fumeo have a major advantage over many poorly thought out auto thread designs.
I know of only a handful that are completely trustworthy and allow nothing at all other than the mag heads, it's pressers plus the actual gate parts, pressure plate etc plus a minimum well designed relieved rollers, to come anywhere near the films frame itself when in RUN mode.

Even then, as with any auto thread machine, everything has to be clean and healthy and working exactly as designed to guarantee this status.


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RE: So have a read through this little lot, if you will!

#9 by Eivind Mork , Thu Oct 20, 2016 12:02 pm

I have the GS 1200. I replaced a coupel of parts with new ones from Van Eck after getting some advice from Parsons.

If the loop has gone wrong, does it get damaged without noticing anything wrong on the screen? I have experienced a few times that the loop is wrong, and I have to push a button to restore the loop.



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RE: So have a read through this little lot, if you will!

#10 by Andrew Woodcock , Thu Oct 20, 2016 12:08 pm

I should have pointed out earlier btw, if you look closely at the photographs above, you will see there are two identical curved mid frame scratches throughout the introduction of this print.

It appears at first glance, there is only the one as the other tends to be masked by the yellow writing in the title sequences.Both are identical in shape and length.

It is no coincidence there are two. This marries up with the shape of the part spoken of earlier and varying degrees of this "slap" spoken about, results in varying degrees of the visible marking to the emulsion side of the print
There is also another stationary guide before entering the sound head section that is highly dubious in its shape and permanent position within the film path both in run as well as thread. This equally cannot be entirely ruled out of the equation when it comes to other types of markings to prints.

In its slightest form, this manifests itself as two annoying visible dots in the central area of the frame.
In its most extreme, you get two heavy pronounced curved mid frame central scratches to the emulsion.

Off past experiences, I would say this example shown falls into the middle category of the extent of damage that can result from these machines if all isn't exactly A1 throughout the running time of your film.
After a splice, even very well made ones , and immediately after initial thread are the times when you are most at risk with this particular type of damage I've found over many many years of using these projectors.


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RE: So have a read through this little lot, if you will!

#11 by Andrew Woodcock , Thu Oct 20, 2016 12:48 pm

This can of course be the case Eivind, in answer to your latest question there, but if you restore your loop quickly,you should be ok.

The danger with the GS that do not have the modified guide with the extra rollers fitted, is that where this guide is positioned I believe, would mean you would not notice any damage to the film until you screened it again because it is after the gate.

This is not to scaremonger here, as I believe the later GS 1200 with the reversed lower loop is much better than the early models with its handling of film.
However, regular inspections for wear to nylon stationary guides within the path are always recommended as well as high levels of cleanliness throughout.
With the additional rollers fitted and metal shoe, I'd say you should be ok, but if a machine is continually dropping a loop without any sprocket hole damage to the film itself, I'd always question this as this really should not be happening if your machine is entirely healthy.

The owners of Elmo machines all tend to attempt to keep their film paths to surgical levels of hygiene from what I read.
I did myself when I was a regular user. Some coat these guides in furniture polish or even silicone wax.

I used to remove all of the green guides on my ST1200's fairly regularly and soak them in a bowl of soapy water before then allowing them to air dry prior to refitting them all. This included removing the two tiny rollers at the initial feed guide.
I then used to lubricate the spindles on the tiny rollers with some very light machine oil before reassembling again. Only a single tiny drop was required.
Care must be taken to fit these tiny rollers the correct way around when refitting also. They are not symmetrical as may appear the case on first glance.
Fit them the wrong way around and one of the roller surfaces will come into contact with the films frame, not just the mag stripes, as is supposed to be the case.


All of this definitely helps, no doubting that, but for me personally, I still got caught out on occasions due simply, to the inherent design and layout within the film path and other components spoken of earlier.

We can do but try, that's all!


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RE: So have a read through this little lot, if you will!

#12 by Eivind Mork , Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:14 pm

Most of my films are quite worn with a few exceptions, so I couldn't tell if there are new damage unless it is very obvious.

I have replaced the guides before the gate, but not after (again followed advice from Parsons). I have the first version of the GS 1200 I think, so maybe I should order a modified version for the lower green parts as well.



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RE: So have a read through this little lot, if you will!

#13 by Andrew Woodcock , Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:40 pm

For the sake of North by Northwest alone, I would as a precautionary Eivind.

It would be better if someone here could vouch for the integrity of these new parts so far in use, but even if you only kept this double rollered secondary guide as a spare, it would be there if you begin to suspect you are starting to have some issues.

If Bill recommended Edwins guides to you, does this not mean you already have some?

Also, presumably, this means Bill has already fitted these elsewhere and is satisfied with the results and outcome if he is recommending these things?

It would be nice to hear back from the Maestro himself on this one!

Do not accept the often heard statement that all prints will wear out as you use them!

In the right hands, they will NOT! At least not until you have screened them several hundreds of times!

Even then, to be honest, I doubt this is true, I cannot say for certain as there are no prints i have owned that I have screened several hundreds of times, but I have prints now that I have screened at least 25 times that still look like new, so it is possible with knowledge and great care / good practices to make all these remaining stunning prints last out our lifetime in normal usage.

Maybe as an exercise, I should try it on a decent short film I have. Spend the day notching up 100 projections and then post the results afterwards?


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RE: So have a read through this little lot, if you will!

#14 by Eivind Mork , Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:53 pm

I have replaced 1 and 2, but not the rest. The machine looks like new.



 
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RE: So have a read through this little lot, if you will!

#15 by Andrew Woodcock , Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:55 pm

I take it these are Bills own words here Eivind?


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RE: So have a read through this little lot, if you will!

#16 by Eivind Mork , Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:57 pm

Cut and pasted from my mail from him, and the picture is his.



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RE: So have a read through this little lot, if you will!

#17 by Andrew Woodcock , Thu Oct 20, 2016 3:03 pm

Leave it with me as I just want to see over on the other forum and Edwin's site which others are available for your specific model as it is the older variant.

Bill used the word "If". I suppose without him inspecting it, there is no way of knowing ultimately how much service life this machine has been subjected to.

Looks can be deceiving as it may well be a very well cared for machine but this does not guarantee in itself that the machine hasn't been well used.
It shouldn't make too much of a difference even if it has so long as your guides look healthy upon close inspection so far as film scratching is concerned.

Are all your motors and clutches suitably powerful in use? No Take up slack or sloppy rewinding?
Does the sound head appear very good on both tracks?

The Beaulieu I have, has seen many many hours of use well before it came into my own hands, but aside from needing a new sound head in the future, there is nothing cosmetic or in it's outwardly appearance to suggest this.

All the initial signs of old age, between Bill, a vintage electronics engineer locally and myself, have all been ironed out now aside from waiting until the death to change out one of my heads. I cannot justify it still yet.

To get it ok it needed work to the amplifier circuit, work on the V.U. meters as well as some other minor solder jobs (dry joints etc), a new lamp holder, a new rewind gear, a new main motor (my own fault, nothing actually wrong with my old one now as I managed to repair it on the tacho coil)and made a plus from a minus situation by ensuring this cannot ever happen again, Doh!) and a new spindle holder for the front.
Now it runs like a dream!

Oh and I did some work servicing the shutter claw to quieten it down considerably!!
Depth of penetration was set a little too deep and this was causing a miniscule of excess clatter and issues occasionally when projecting Acetate prints (thicker).


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RE: So have a read through this little lot, if you will!

#18 by Eivind Mork , Thu Oct 20, 2016 3:17 pm

It looks new to me, but I am no expert. It came in the original box.

No slack on the take up reel (like I have on my 16CL), and no sloppy rewinding (like I have on my 16CL).

I don't think I have any print with sound on both tracks except for a test film from van Eck which does not last long. Didn't think about any sound quality differences between the tracks but didn't look for it either.



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RE: So have a read through this little lot, if you will!

#19 by Andrew Woodcock , Thu Oct 20, 2016 3:19 pm

It's just a small, yet significant sign of how much use our machines have experienced, that's all Eivind.

After many many years of use, Track 2 can begin to sound a little muffled and bassy or discoloured. Again, not the end of the world though!


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RE: So have a read through this little lot, if you will!

#20 by Bill Parsons , Thu Oct 20, 2016 6:16 pm

I would like to mention I am waiting on a sample of the latest guides from Edwin, I did point out to him there were problems with the initial batch of guides, the best solution is probably still to fit rollers to the existing guides, a bit if a fiddly job, i have run out of rollers myself, and I prefer the Elmo rollers to Edwin’s first batch.
I would also like to say I do not like my private comments and pictures posted without my permission, so would be obliged if someone removed them.


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RE: So have a read through this little lot, if you will!

#21 by Andrew Woodcock , Thu Oct 20, 2016 6:20 pm

Either Vidar, Eivind or Myself can and will be able to do that Bill, no problem.
Just having dinner in a minute Bill but it will gone in an hour latest.

Thanks for your input here btw Bill. Most appreciated, as always.


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RE: So have a read through this little lot, if you will!

#22 by Andrew Woodcock , Thu Oct 20, 2016 6:26 pm

Now all done Bill.


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RE: So have a read through this little lot, if you will!

#23 by Paul Browning , Thu Oct 20, 2016 6:30 pm

Can you still get the roller Bill, or do you just salvage them from other machines ?.


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RE: So have a read through this little lot, if you will!

#24 by Eivind Mork , Thu Oct 20, 2016 6:42 pm

Sorry about that, Bill. I didn't think about you didn't like it. Thanks to Andrew who removed it before I read this.



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RE: So have a read through this little lot, if you will!

#25 by Bill Parsons , Thu Oct 20, 2016 6:47 pm

Thanks andrew much appreciated, I did forget to mention that Edwin’s guides do have the raised section on the sides, but you are correct in what you say the plastic has this rough surface to it, I do not know the answer to this, can other plastic be used with 3D printing ?
Yes Paul since I ran out of new rollers I have been salvaging the rollers from scrap machines (also the spindles to fit them on) I suppose if I had the time and enthusiasm I could make some, maybe you could Paul ?


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