Severe sanity check now required

#1 by Tom Photiou , Wed Jun 22, 2016 11:27 pm

Adam, i am sure you will sell The empire strikes back, and i know it will be great quality, but just looking on here recently at what films are being sold for what i think is barmy money is the very thing that's making me and my Brother think very hard as to weather to call it a day with cine. We probably wont jump out just now but looking at what’s being asked for some films is, (in my opinion), is laughable. We also have another thread selling the pod race asking £100, the film barley runs 13 minutes. Yes i fully understand it's all about supply and demand etc but over a grand for a movie? And clearly more and more long term collectors now selling some top titles clearly appear to be selling up while the goings good. Maybe? I am evening seeing prints going with scratches and what is described as pinking, i am sorry but i just dont get it. We are bemused by it all and if a film can fetch over a grand what's the point of it being sat on shelf for years without being viewed.
I set up my digital projector and watch a great film not available on super 8, The Mission in widescreen with 5:1 Dolby sound, the picture was perfect and there was no fade and not a single line or splice in sight, oh and no reel changes.
Would i prefer it on super 8, you bet i would, but it's never been available, would the sound on cine be as good? No way, if it was available would it be fading? Probably, would it be line free? Probably not, if i had a copy would i have got it for £2.99, not a chance.
I am very very loyal to super 8 and have been a collector for 38 years but looking around at the cost of films that are actually worth buying is seriously making me question continuing.
The people selling off top titles are not chaps who have inherited, they are respected collectors.
Does anyone else on here get tired of spending good money with dealers only to receive shit that’s scratched, fading, damaged or all three? I Know i am.
We all love our films, no one more than me, but really it's time for us to think on this.


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RE: Severe sanity check now required

#2 by Andrew Woodcock , Wed Jun 22, 2016 11:47 pm

Oh dear Tom!!!!

This is alarming news indeed, but not totally unexpected if I'm honest mate. For some time now, I've noticed you beginning to question the reasons as to why you remain loyal to the wonderful Super 8mm gauge and all of the product available on the format.

Mate, all i can say is this (and incidentally I tell no lie it's pretty much the same as I said to Robert in a PM earlier), If I want true 35mm quality for picture and sound in my home or for "professional" presentation, I know all too well I have it upstairs, set up in minutes, noiseless, no hassles whatsoever and perfect... and I do mean perfect, sound and vision! Flawless in every way in fact.

Now then, I ask myself, is it a substitute for all of the pleasure I gain from running a bespoke print through a quiet running bespoke Super 8mm projector with all of the related and associated hassles of doing so?... well for me Tom, No!

I tried it for about a decade, did every big movie that ever hit the planet for ten years or more while the kids were young and through the time of having my own Daughter earlier, and somehow mate, there was always something missing for my ultimate enjoyment from all of this Big Screen malarkey.

It is of course Tom, your decision and your decision alone, but I don't doubt if you were to sell up while the going is still very good, you will at times, feel as though there is something missing from your enjoyment given your extensive time and unbelievable contribution to the hobby.

I hope this is a passing phase for you mate, I really do...but if not, I really hope you stick around here on this and the other forums as you simply have too much to give and too much knowledge of all things film to lose you.

I'd say exactly the same to anyone like this, Hugh for example.

It's a sad day indeed Tom if or when Super 8mm leaves your home, but of course, I'd always respect and understand your final decision should it come to this.


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RE: Severe sanity check now required

#3 by Tom Photiou , Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:04 am

Thats the thing you see, we do of course very much enjoy our super 8, but some recent purchases just make you think what the hell am i doing with my hard earned cash, i'm buying damaged goods and after viewing i think why?
I am pretty sure my Brother, (who is the half of us putting this to me), will decide to probably keep what we have or maybe reduce it but unless something special comes along we will almost certainly reduce our spend, of course if i can continue to make ebay pay to make some cash to buy then this will be the way forward, a lot of what i have put on lately has been what i have received from dealers which has disappointed us,


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RE: Severe sanity check now required

#4 by Andrew Woodcock , Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:17 am

Prints now, more than ever before, are a real risk!

I'm hated at times I know I am. Whenever i ask around a print i fancy, I am met with a certain degree of avoidance one way or another. Well that is unless i purchase from a very select one or two people who i know keep these things the way i have always strived to do.

I've said it before Tom, now more than ever before, it is a real lottery as to what turns up. The people selling and experienced buyers know all of this and it quickly becomes a game of cat and mouse where questions and answers are concerned!

I spend a fair amount on film if i'm honest, waste a little but generally gain a lot through extremely calculated risks.
I won't buy privately unless I'm satisfied I have enough evidence to send the thing back if not as described. This ruling applies to any goods we purchase if we do so by using tools such as Paypal, e bay, or debit cards for purchase for example.

From a dealer, I'd simply return if not EXACTLY as described. Private sales are trickier, but that is where relationships and trust have to kick in,

I've wasted money of course I have, who hasn't in this hobby??
But I refuse to be ripped for large sums no matter what tactics come my way. If I have reservations from reasonable questions, I simply don't pursue, but ironically, those people don't pursue me either in future times as a perspective mug for any of their bullshit or shoddy goods seemingly!

You've been around the game long enough mate to take good calculated risks, just don't always expect 1988 prints in the year 2016!
We all have to be realistic here in this day and age so long into the last decent feature length films printed. we just have to be realistic. If it's top top dollar it should be something close to 1988 like this speed print here today, if not, it should be reflected in the asking price.

Problems only arise when sellers want a profit on what they paid new for prints, but they have run them to death on a SS 1200 or worse!!


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RE: Severe sanity check now required

#5 by Hugh Thompson Scott ( deleted ) , Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:29 am

Lad's. get a grip, not all sellers are ripping folk off, I pride myself on never , ever selling anything on ebay, any films have always
been given to forum members, as they should. Some people have films they want to sell at crazy prices, my advice ignore. You yourself
Tom, seasoned 8mm man, you know the score, ebay can be a minefield, if not happy, return, you wouldn'y buy a Ferrari covered in
scratches for top money, reject As for you packing the hobby in, yeah, just noticed I have a front bottom! Andrew, I think you are one
of the reasons any newcomer should take up the hobby, you are a bloody advert, but never kid yourself that super 8, or even 16mm can ever come in spitting distance of 35mm. I have 35mm frames from Jason & the Argonauts, but they pale to the 35mm slides I have taken, that were larger again, because they used it horizontaly,, K2 from Kodak, but far and away superior picture quality.More than twice the 35mm frame, and it is superb. Just putting things in perspective.



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RE: Severe sanity check now required

#6 by Vidar Olavesen , Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:30 am

I thought about IT for a second. No substitute for film for me. I rather pay extra for the magic. I barely tolerate the digital.


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RE: Severe sanity check now required

#7 by Andrew Woodcock , Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:30 am

Well I never!


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RE: Severe sanity check now required

#8 by Andrew Woodcock , Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:35 am

Hugh, only Blu Ray & 4k /10k presentation, can equal a 35mm print for APPARENT (to the naked eye) resolution. Dare i say even surpass for the latter! That was what i was referring to earlier, certainly not a very good S8 print.


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RE: Severe sanity check now required

#9 by Hugh Thompson Scott ( deleted ) , Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:50 am

Vidar, we know you love film, but a line must be drawn, your expenses versus your income, as Mr McCawber stated in David Copperfield
when the minuses exceed the pluses, trouble. Its okay to expound film, I love it too, but the points Tom makes are valid, film was always
an expensive commodity, but not as expensive as some think it should be. Opportunism, jumping on the band wagon , hoping for a sucker, yes, they are always there, on the chance some ill informed idiot will buy, in the words of one of the Carry on team, "Piss orf!"
The idea that offering films for daft money, is a killer, the serious collector has an idea of value and will not fall for the bullshit, if it ain't right, return. Tom, you're a big lad, piss 'em off.



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RE: Severe sanity check now required

#10 by Hugh Thompson Scott ( deleted ) , Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:05 am

Hi Andrew, not a poke, but greater area of film, better definition, the 35mm slide is in the area of IMAX, so in the home can be very, very clear. A picture my late Father took of the town of Whitehaven, showed the cricket ground, with people playing, that would have
been lost on a smaller frame. I fully appreciate your set up, which no doubt is the pinnacle of 8mm, but to compare to greater emulsion
area, isn't feasible. this is only still frame, so imagine a changing frame of differing grain on a projected image, Blue Ray I feel is a con.



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RE: Severe sanity check now required

#11 by Andrew Woodcock , Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:12 am

8mm as said Hugh, cannot come even close Hugh to 35mm. 16mm ..well yes maybe, just maybe at times, but 35 / 70mm, no.. of course not.

If you see the likes of these dogs bollocks digital fella's of today, like what Mr Clarke purchased for example at the price of a reasonable terraced house in some areas,
Believe me Hugh, the quality of image when fed correctly is simply staggering con or no con my friend!

Of course at these prices, you'd expect it to be!!!!

It still don't let me love S8 any the less though even having seen the best of the very best of today. You can' t thread digital! ha ha


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RE: Severe sanity check now required

#12 by David Hardy ( deleted ) , Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:17 am

I prefer film first and foremost but I would never pay insane prices for ANY copy these days in view of the fact most
of them seem to be scratched ( damaged ) , faded , buckled or shrunk.
In fact even taking into consideration another fact that film has always been an expensive medium i think
its even more insane that any collector is willing to pay big money for any title regardless of its rarity.
The so-called rare title in reality is not rare at all as its usually available to buy on the alternative mediums
at a fraction of the price and of a quality similar to if not better than 35mm prints of it.
A copy of a film may be hard to find but i doubt if its as rare as claimed.
So i am with Tom on that one and understand where he is coming from an expense perspective.


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RE: Severe sanity check now required

#13 by Andrew Woodcock , Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:22 am

David it is simply only rare on it's relative format AND in it's original condition. Anything outside these parameters can be got for much much less, or a tenner max from Asda on a shiny disc!

Not the same though somehow, as already said earlier to Tom !

If you want to pursue film and all of it's relative upkeep and hassles, expense doesn't come into it. If it did, we would ALL be in front of a psychiatrist by now!!

I love my old muckers analogy at these times, Yes I can own the DVD for £1 off the market, I can own a print of the Mona Lisa for the price of a piece of A4 and the ink, but it ain't the REAL DEAL!!! ...nor is the DVD and it's pixels!!!

Remember, a load of one's / noughts for an hour and half, fading by the half decade now, or 1440 of individual crafted transparencies per minute in glorious IB Technicolour or LPP.

You pay's your money.. you take your choice!


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RE: Severe sanity check now required

#14 by David Hardy ( deleted ) , Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:48 am

Yes Andrew i know full well it may be rare on its relative format taking into account its overall condition
and all the other variables involved on film stock with all its intrinsic imperfections.
I should have been more clear on that on my comment.
What i should have made clear is that it all depends on a definition of RARE.
Rare for me is that it is very hard and almost impossible to see a copy of movie X on ANY
medium.
How many times have you seen a Film Print for sale at a high price advertised as VERY RARE only to
find it is available in the same gauge somewhere else much cheaper ?
I think there is a lot of psychological manipulation involved that plays on some film collectors
desires and passions for his hobby.
Bottom line for me is that given a reality and sanity check is that no film print is really worth
more than say £ 25 - £ 30 for a feature film on any gauge regardless of the title or print condition
and alleged rarity status.
If we are all honest with ourselves and in our own way, we are victims of our own choosing to supporting what is really a huge scam and con regarding
film collecting taking into consideration the cheaper alternatives out there these days That's what Tom and his brother are deliberating about
at the moment.
Still as the saying goes..." you pays your money and makes your choice" .


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RE: Severe sanity check now required

#15 by Andrew Woodcock , Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:56 am

No sorry David, not for myself, not at this stage of life, I simply cannot agree to the £25 to £35 curfew. if I did, at best on the guage I love, i'd be down to Saturday Night Fever or The Godfather on Marketing faded abridged 3x 400ft releases only.

Nope sorry David, that don't cut it for me, not when i've waited a lifetime to get to this stage in proceedings!

Each to their own of course and it appears the "Tom Camp" is gaining momentum, never mind the EU vote tomorrow!


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RE: Severe sanity check now required

#16 by Hugh Thompson Scott ( deleted ) , Thu Jun 23, 2016 2:17 am

I must say David speaks sense, who in their right mind is going to pyt £ 1000.00 for a print of a film he can buy for a tiny fraction
plus a projector in DVD, no the comparison is killed, coupled to which, the bottom line, who is this for, you, or the audience? Let's
be honest, people in the street can view this stuff in their own homes, equally as good as the best film presentation, Tom has a point.



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RE: Severe sanity check now required

#17 by Andrew Woodcock , Thu Jun 23, 2016 2:26 am

Always Hugh, but you're little Viking here won't listen to that, nor would I expect him to!

i love both methods of screening, but film is only for us lot here, everything else is done by millions now on a Saturday night, not just footballers and bent snorting Mp's wearing lederhosen anymore!

That don't make it wrong or inferior, because it isn't. It just makes it different and for the masses which of course, we are not!!


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RE: Severe sanity check now required

#18 by Michael Lattavo , Thu Jun 23, 2016 2:38 am

Rarity and worth are difficult to define. I agree with Andrew's comment on rarity being dependent on the gauge it is available on. I have only just begun to dabble in super 8, but it seems to me that there are more full length feature films available in 16, which makes a full length feature in super 8 rather rare. Along those same lines, I have never seen a condensed 16mm film, which seems to be pretty abundant on the super 8 format.

Worth could be a topic all on its own. Generally speaking, any item is worth whatever someone else is willing to spend for it. You then have to take into account personal tastes and emotion. I never got into Abbot and Costello, just don't get their humor. As such, a mint original print of one of their skits might be worth a fortune to a fan....whereas I wouldn't take it if it were free - I just have no interest. One of my most prized prints is a beet red, faded print of a film called Hot Lead and Cold Feet. Probably watched it a thousand times on beta max when I was a kid. If I were to list it on ebay, it would probaby sell for 5 bucks, because it is a worthless print, but it is worth so much more to me because of how it takes me back whenever I watch it. And sure, I could probably buy it on dvd (if it's available), and get a better picture, but the experience wouldn't be the same.

My two cents, anyway! Or shillings, I guess, depending on tomorrow's vote!



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RE: Severe sanity check now required

#19 by Andrew Woodcock , Thu Jun 23, 2016 2:43 am

Indeed Michael!

One man's pill is very much another mans poison in this hobby and i can quite categorically say, that if A & C or Charlie Chaplin prints were the only Super 8mm prints available now, or the Keystone Cops for that matter...I would not be here!!

Harold LLoyd and Laurel & Hardy though...well now, that is a different matter!


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RE: Severe sanity check now required

#20 by Del Phillipson ( deleted ) , Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:50 am

Tom, please trust me on this, IF you ever did decide to sell up and leave super 8 you will regret it, maybe not in a months time, maybe not a year, but down the line you will regret it, I know, I've been there. The problem is, IF you then decided to come back you have absolutely no chance of getting the much loved prints you have now. A) nobody seems to want to part with them & B) they will be even more expensive than they are now.

I could stop buying super 8 films now if I wanted to, I have a great collection that will last me a lifetime of viewing and like you I will sell something to buy something, it makes sense to me. I have 3 great projectors that if looked after will last me out (hopefully) so all I would say to you mate is just enjoy what you have already, I do, but always be on the lookout for a bargain or two, trust me they are out there.


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RE: Severe sanity check now required

#21 by Robert Crewdson ( deleted ) , Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:08 am

Nothing beats the experience of setting up and watching a real film on a projector. After 38 years, I doubt if Tom could part with his films, if he did, he would regret it, and as Del says, you could never get those prints back. It was never a cheap hobby, at the peak of my collecting, I had a mortgage, and couldn't afford films like 'Jason and the Argonauts' from Derann. The prices being asked for some films now is just ridiculous. I wouldn't pay that kind of money if I could, and I certainly wouldn't be happy to find splices that were not there when it was first owned. If Tom retains his collection, but doesn't add to it, it means he's still in the hobby, and he has a wealth of knowledge he can pass on to us and the younger generation. Interesting question about seasoned collectors selling up; have prices peaked, and are these collectors selling up, before prices drop?


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RE: Severe sanity check now required

#22 by Andrew Woodcock , Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:37 am

I think so Robert yes. For some time now, prices of films since Derann folded have steadily gone up and up.
This doesn't apply to all prints by any means, just the ones most desirable to the people who still collect these things.
The prints that have risen the most are most likely the exact same ones Tom, Del, myself and quite a few others have waited for, for many years.

This of course cannot last forever as these things age and times ticks along. There has to be a peak and perhaps this is indeed it.

I do believe some collectors realize this and have decided this may well be the last big opportunity to be able to get something like the money they have spent over the years on their films and also equipment in some cases.

Whether it is or isn't, one things for certain, whilever the people still exist who are still interested in finally obtaining some of these later traditionally highly sought after prints, you won't be seeing them for sale in top condition for £100 or even £150.
It just won't happen. Prices may well come down to those the majority of us die hards find more acceptable, but there is still enough interest and spending power out there for these things to ensure the creme de la creme goes for higher than a fraction of what it would have done in 2014

I think the bigger dilemma for some people in the hobby is a different one to the attitude that clearly I see from some people here.

To explain, listening to Del, Hugh and knowing my own outlook on these matters for example, if prices did plummet, I really wouldn't be unduly concerned seeing the money I've spent over the years dwindle.
Just like the countless records, tapes and cd's I've bought over the years, I doubt any of these guys see their film collection as any kind of investment.
They've simply purchased them as a means of enjoyment to enhance and enrich their lives with.

Not everyone has this same philosophy or outlook though, and clearly there are some people who would find it impossible to live with, if all of that money they've spent over the years, were just to potentially disappear as these type of goods lose value in the marketplace.

For these type of people, hanging on to their collection while they witness the bottom falling out of the market for these type of goods, simply isn't an option.

As Del said earlier, if you have already a large collection of films, there is no real necessity to keep adding to it. Screening a few a week for the rest of our lives in rotation, would still give many of us with sizable collections, an enormous amount of pleasure and a varied diet of screening until we turned our toes. Therefore if I, Hugh, Del or maybe many many others never added another print to the pile, it really wouldn't be the end of the world, but seemingly to others, this would not be option if the value of these things was in a state of collapse.


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RE: Severe sanity check now required

#23 by Eivind Mork , Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:04 pm

With these prices I could never buy all my films on real film. But even if I did, I would not have the storage space either. And even if my wife is very patient with me, she does not share the same hobby, and she would rather sue the DVD when she is to see a film herself wven though she often watch real film with me.

So my view is simply: I love real film. I buy a film once in a while, but I will not go crazy and use all my money. As my collection grows, I will probably buy more seldom than now. But I will still love my films and not stop wathing even if the number of new films decrease. Already now after just a few years I have enough that whenever I am at the cottage where the films are, I can pick a film which has not been seen for a while, and I still love it.

No one should use more money on the hobby than they can afford. The same goes for ANY hobby. One of my other hobbies are photography. I have equipment a few thousand euros. I could say exactly the same there. Why do I use so much money? What is the point. I could use cheaper equipment for a fraction of the price. It would not be the same, but I would have used a lot less money. But I could think the in a different way also: I really enjoy photography. I have spent a lot of money on it, but never money I could not afford. And it is bought over many years, Just as the films the equipment is now worth less than it was new, but I don't care. I enjoy every minute when I use it. And now I don't need to buy new things all the time. I have several lenses and I can enjoy them all even if they are old. I don't need to buy new stuff all the time to enjoy my hobby.

It is healthy to stop and think about the money we spend. But I can't see a reason to stop enjoy what we already own. I would love a new Canon EOS 1X Mk II. It costs 6800 EUR. It would be ridiculous to spend that kind of money for me. So therefore I still use my old 7D which is not nearly as good, but I still love it.



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RE: Severe sanity check now required

#24 by Andrew Woodcock , Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:14 pm

A very good sensible outlook to have in life there Eivind.

I agree with you entirely regarding the fact we should all never spend more money on any hobby than we can duly afford.
Our families welfare should always come first.


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RE: Severe sanity check now required

#25 by Hugh Thompson Scott ( deleted ) , Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:20 pm

Personally, I've never looked on my films as an investment, remember when video appeared? A lot of people dropped film like a hot rock,
but a lot realised the folly and came back, but a very expensive learning curve. I look on them as an entertainment, like LPs or DVDs,
obviously if I had to sell, you try for a fair price, but some of these being asked are in the realms of fantasy, which is why I asked, who is
it really for, the audience or the projectionist? "Its only a movie", as they say in horror trailers.



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