RE: What gauges do you collect?

#26 by Eivind Mork , Thu May 12, 2016 3:38 pm

My first thought was that this would be perfect for my Clock Cleaners film which has a bit bad sound. But then I remembered that it doesn't have the bird scene, so I would have to edit the audio file too before the transfer :-)



 
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RE: What gauges do you collect?

#27 by Andrew Woodcock , Thu May 12, 2016 3:45 pm

Not necessarily Eivind.

Simply record up to point where the film differs, then stop the recording.
Then allow the video to run up to the point where the bird scene ends, then pick up the recording again using your projector.

Recordings should not necessarily have to made in one sweep. Layering is essential at times here.

It is nice when can achieve perfect sync for 600ft at a time, but this may not always be possible, so you need to be able to pick up from a last known good synchronized scene in a movie at times.


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RE: What gauges do you collect?

#28 by Vidar Olavesen , Thu May 12, 2016 3:49 pm

There won't be a snap sound?


 
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RE: What gauges do you collect?

#29 by Andrew Woodcock , Thu May 12, 2016 3:54 pm

Shouldn't be Vidar if you use your superimposition knob or slider swiftly. The Bauer is superb at layering sound. I regularly patch over sections if I begin to drift from sync slightly and cannot regain it quickly enough.

It is totally unnoticeable to the human ear where one section ended and a new one began, so long as you maintain the very same recording levels throughout.


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RE: What gauges do you collect?

#30 by Hugh Thompson Scott ( deleted ) , Thu May 12, 2016 6:14 pm

If Vidar is trying to record a soundtrack, without any sync box, he can do it with any sound projector without resorting to
superimposition buttons. Its a technique I used decades ago, by letting the sync drift, taking it back to the last point of sync
then just easing the record button in. There are no clicks on sound and nothing to detect. The Elmo ST1200 was a joy to use
in this respect, uncomplicated and rendered superb results.



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RE: What gauges do you collect?

#31 by Andrew Woodcock , Thu May 12, 2016 6:29 pm

Out of the 5 ST1200,s I've owned Hugh, I personally have never seen one that maintains any kind of accuracy or stability to its transportation speed.

In fact I cannot recall ANY projector that uses an a.c. motor (mechanical lever to change the speed), that is anywhere close to being accurate enough, though Paul Adsett reckons he has had satisfactory results from using a 938 somehow??

It is inherent by design that a.c. induction motors change speed as they warm up and cannot be controlled with any degree of accuracy outside of using an inverter to drive one.
Servo motors however, are a different kettle of fish, alas no manufacturer went to these lengths!

Superimposition simply allows you to have the projector running in record mode without actually placing a new recording onto the stripe until you raise the slider or turn the knob.

It gives seamless transitions and is far better as a technique than simply switching on and off the recording buttons each time a new section is about to be recorded.


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RE: What gauges do you collect?

#32 by Hugh Thompson Scott ( deleted ) , Thu May 12, 2016 6:44 pm

I'm not going to argue Andrew, the soundtracks I recorded are as good as package movie standard, The Elmo was as good as
anybody's projector and better than most, in that it was not a complex machine, had a needle readout for recording and I didn't have any
wow or flutter, which is where technique scores over apparatus, last point of sync, any minute fluctuations are ironed out in
the time you slip to recording. A thing I can never understand was all the whistles and bells on some projectors for recording tracks,
a soundtrack for one's home movie should be done on a tape recorder separately, then transferred in a single run, all that was required
was a twin track tape recorder. A case of the obvious being overlooked by manufacturers.



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RE: What gauges do you collect?

#33 by Andrew Woodcock , Thu May 12, 2016 6:48 pm

If you were to place a tachometer on the shaft end or shutter of one of these, you would see just how much variation of speed there is here Hugh.

You've done it, and of course, I believe you.
I just don't how with one of these to lip sync levels.

The modern machines with "the bells and whistles" simply allowed greater control of building up layers to a soundtrack on home movies, in the same principle an 8 track would do likewise in a recording studio. One musician at a time if you so wished.


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RE: What gauges do you collect?

#34 by Hugh Thompson Scott ( deleted ) , Thu May 12, 2016 7:04 pm

It's very simple Andrew, you're only talking of sync for a couple of minutes, then it drifts, so you're doing it in "bites" a piece at a time,
by leaving the machine to record drift, allows you to slide the REC. button when replaying, thus no noise on soundtrack, by doing this,
its possible to achieve excellent results. When I was doing this, there were no GS1200s with sync boxes or Pedro or even the Cisco Kid,
it was desperation pushed me, advice from various "experts" was less than useless, one of them even said to me, "Well, it sounds a bit
arse about face to me, as your tape spool fills up it'll speed up the tape!" he didn't grasp it when I said that there was a slip clutch in these machines to prevent that. The man that was a great help was Chris Taylor from "Movie Maker", he told me how to alter a cassette recorder in order keep pace with a projector.



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RE: What gauges do you collect?

#35 by Andrew Woodcock , Thu May 12, 2016 7:42 pm

Yeah make the pinch roller a slightly different diameter etc.
Well done here then Hugh.
I honestly don't think I'd have the patience in the run lengths I have, doing it completely "wild" so to speak.But good on you Hugh.


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RE: What gauges do you collect?

#36 by Hugh Thompson Scott ( deleted ) , Thu May 12, 2016 7:57 pm

Actually, it was the original soundtrack to the Italian Fistfull, 50 minutes of it, but it had been recorded, thankfully by the seller
on a cassette tape, but from a projector running slightly slow, so I was told by Chris, to place a wind of tape over one of the belt wheels,
it worked a treat, a simple solution to a problem that was a pain at best, it is usually the way Andrew.



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RE: What gauges do you collect?

#37 by David Ollerearnshaw , Thu May 12, 2016 9:23 pm

Started with super 9, at the time standard 8 releases were almost finished. So the ELMO ST1200 was bought. Much later I visited a paradise in Southampton called Pinedene Films and bought B&H 16mm and Silent Partner film. I have some standard 8 and 35mm but nothing to show them with.


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RE: What gauges do you collect?

#38 by Hugh Thompson Scott ( deleted ) , Thu May 12, 2016 10:30 pm

Just a point, when we speak of building up soundtracks, this ought to be done first on tape, ( ! ) it is easier and allows for multi erasures
one either one or two tracks, eg music and narration as two separates, ( 2 ), it removes wear on the film proper, the movie doesn't need
to be used as a "master tape", ( 3 ) there is less chance of picking up projector noise if done on tape first. something the manufacturers didn't tell "joe public". If it was a home movie, all that was required was to time the length of film, using a twin or four track tape recorder, it was a simple task of timing your music cues and marks on tape where
any narration began and ended, you didn't need to constantly use your film. After your soundtrack was recorded, a transfer could be done without any synchronisers used.



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RE: What gauges do you collect?

#39 by Andrew Woodcock , Fri May 13, 2016 11:08 am

But a cassette recorder outside of the professional world (8 track and so on), didn't generally offer anywhere near the versatility or facilities that a decent modern Super 8mm Projector did.

Or editor for that matter, come to think of it.

Cassette recorders, mini disc recorders and the likes were primarily designed just for the intention of recording a complete soundtrack in one pass. Most domestic models had no facility for "layering" a soundtrack to varying levels on two separate tracks.

The "trick" facilities found on many of the later versatile Super 8mm projectors, were second to none.
An example being, they would automatically sense where a narration had been added previously to the track, and then would lower the second recording level of the added background music to bring this already existing narration to the foreground.Then at the end of the narrative, the levels of the background music would increase once again to line level, automatically! Very clever.

Highly polished and nigh on professional results could often be achieved using these techniques and facilities here.

Using a tape deck to master a soundtrack first, would in any event lead to mis timing issues as you cannot narrate "live" etc. As said, many projectors without a dc drive circuit, would vary by some considerable amount from a screening of exactly the same film from one day to another.

No amount of stop watch timing would really assist you here as the timings would change from one run of the film to another.

Therefore if a comment was to make it on film at precisely the right time, the best way to achieve this would be to record it "live" while viewing the film on either a projector or better still, an editor to eliminate any possibility of projection background noise.

Finally...the more times you record something onto tape, then transfer it, the more hiss you induce, even with Dolby NR. So recording to tape only then to use this tape to record onto film, would never bring about the favoured result.

Where I used to add music from a cassette recorder onto my home movies, you can audibly hear an increase in hiss,and this was using Chrome or Metal cassettes.
Even a record player would bring better results but then of course, often, surface noise would take the place of the tapes hiss.

Digital software of today, does of course, now finally offer the perfect solution for building up a professional layered soundtrack of as many layers as you heart desires, and completely noise less, but even then, without the facility to accurately control your projectors running speed from one pass to another, the transfer may run over or end too soon dependent on the length of your home movie and the accuracy of your projectors transport drive.


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RE: What gauges do you collect?

#40 by Hugh Thompson Scott ( deleted ) , Fri May 13, 2016 12:34 pm

Rubbish Andrew, there isn't a stripe projector made can come anywhere near the quality obtained from a good quality
tape recorder. On that basis, they'd be using stripe projectors in the music industry, bollocks. If you were to keep using your
projector as a recording studio, build up track, that is undue wear on your film, are you trying to tell me that all these years
we have been doing it wrong, all these projectors that we have are crap? That we all should worship at the altar of Bauer, I
say again, bollocks.



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RE: What gauges do you collect?

#41 by Andrew Woodcock , Fri May 13, 2016 12:58 pm

Your call Hugh,.. but of course, I cannot agree with you here.

The fidelity of a stripe on Super 8mm is limited, I agree, but that is the destination point no matter how the track is recorded and no matter by what master material method.

These limitations of the stripe fidelity itself are therefore the weakest link in the chain.

So, I reiterate.. The most flexible, convenient,accurate and least replicating way of building a soundtrack of multiple layers onto a stripe, with minimal hiss etc, is to do it directly in my experiences, either by recording onto a projector itself or better still, using a decent Super 8mm editor.

The way in which the sound will without doubt record the very best using your projector or editor onto a stripe, is from a digital lossless original source, something which, of course, was never available back in the day, or when our films were recorded (in the vast majority of cases).


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RE: What gauges do you collect?

#42 by Hugh Thompson Scott ( deleted ) , Fri May 13, 2016 1:18 pm

Andrew, if you can hear hiss on a recording, it is either a poor recording, or you are playing it far too loud. I can't hear hiss
on any of my replays, even with the Eumigs, slight hum if played loud, but no hiss. I project in a room 30' x 15', when I use
the projectors, I can't honestly hear hiss, now if I were to ignore the film, get down in front of the speaker, I might, but if
the film is entertaining, I have yet to here comments on sound, "Oh wasn't the sound quality lovely?" I doubt it.Even in the pro cinema, except to say it was far too loud. Picture is primary, sound secondary, a rule that holds true in TV and Film.



Hugh Thompson Scott

RE: What gauges do you collect?

#43 by Andrew Woodcock , Fri May 13, 2016 1:23 pm

On any magnetic tape cassette or other type of magnetic recording you can hear hiss Hugh, to the discerning ear. Dolby NR and the use of better tape materials like Chrome etc, helped for sure, but the issue was never fully eliminated before the CD was born.

It was a similar story for surface noise using Vinyl.

Incidentally, I never said sound was of paramount importance in any of this, they both add to an enjoyment of a film in my world. If Picture is crap and sound is fantastic... the overall experience is one of dissatisfaction and vice versa.

The discussion was simply surrounding what the best method of building up a multi layered sound track onto Super 8mm film was.
You suggested yours, I have suggested my own prefered methods after many years of doing so.


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RE: What gauges do you collect?

#44 by David Hardy ( deleted ) , Fri May 13, 2016 1:35 pm

In my view I find the sound quality of a well recorded / transferred stripe on 8mm only just
acceptable due to its limited frequency response.
I have an extreme dislike of any "wowy" sounding track.
Some of those Ken Films and others 20th Century Fox fanfares are terrible.
I agree that recording directly on to the projector from a source can give the best results in
some cases.
However I am afraid that for me the sound is still only just acceptable.
Its was good thing that most people are not Hi-Fi buffs as most of these machines
would never have sold on account of the " sound quality" alone regardless of
what hype and figures any projector manufacturer claimed away back then.
At best film sound on 8mm/ 16mm can best be described as Lo to Mid Fidelity.
Unlike the Digital Sound in Pro Cinemas these days which can best be described as unnatural
and overblown and yes indeed far too loud.
I agree with Hugh here ... Picture primary ... Sound secondary.


David Hardy

RE: What gauges do you collect?

#45 by Andrew Woodcock , Fri May 13, 2016 1:40 pm

You'd be Surprised David, of just what can be achieved from a lossless digital audio source onto a decent magnetic stripe. Just ask people like Alan Rik if you don't believe me here.

He has received many a transfer from Lance over in the U.S. and he will agree, they can sound far better than "acceptable" on many many occasions.


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RE: What gauges do you collect?

#46 by David Hardy ( deleted ) , Fri May 13, 2016 1:44 pm

As for vinyl surface noise this should not be a problem if you have a really
good quality pressing and a very good quality Tonearm/ Turntable setup.
It pushes any noise away into the background to be almost inaudible and lets
the music come through .
As Linn used to say in their advertising hype. "Put Rubbish In ... Get Rubbish Out !"


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RE: What gauges do you collect?

#47 by Hugh Thompson Scott ( deleted ) , Fri May 13, 2016 1:46 pm

It isn't my technique Andrew, its been a recognised method for years in not only the film industry, but the amateur one as well,
that is why I asked "are we all doing it wrong?" The professional wouldn't dream of using a projector to master sound. I personally can't see the point of searching out a film, only to re record a perfectly good soundtrack, now to someone else, like myself, if the sound is audible, no wow, in sync, it'll do for me. If it was so important
to me, I'd be looking for to sync with DVD or just cut out the middle man and go for DVD projection. As I say, I don't sit and listen
for hiss and clicks etc, the film usually has all my attention. Vidar is going to re record a film soundtrack from an 8mm master, I've
no doubt it won't be Dolby standard ( whatever the hell that was, it didn't sound any different ) but it'll be the same as all the other
soundtracks on old films, hiss and pops, but totally enjoyable, it is possible to be too clinical.



Hugh Thompson Scott

RE: What gauges do you collect?

#48 by Andrew Woodcock , Fri May 13, 2016 1:47 pm

I completely agree David, but as you say very much down to the pressing. Only digital has completely eradicated the problem of extraneous noise on a recording. Tonally, however, digital somehow lacks a certain warmth that only vinyl can bring about.


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RE: What gauges do you collect?

#49 by David Hardy ( deleted ) , Fri May 13, 2016 1:47 pm

Andrew ...I will keep on open mind on what you claim here.
Only problem is I will probably never get the chance to judge for my self.
So I remain sceptical on that one for the time being.


David Hardy

RE: What gauges do you collect?

#50 by David Hardy ( deleted ) , Fri May 13, 2016 1:51 pm

As for Digital Sound it produces more distortions than Analogue does from a Hi-Fi perspective
that is.
Most of the Digital "timing clocks " are way off the mark unlike a well tuned and set up turntable
or Open Reel Tape Deck.


David Hardy

   

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