Sound Quality on 8mm.

#1 by David Hardy ( deleted ) , Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:47 am

What do you think of the general sound quality of 8mm prints ?
I have always found it to be lacking overall "sparkle" at the top end due to its limited HF response with no real "bass punch" at the bottom.
Sometimes the all important Midrange for speech can sound muffled and diffuse.
No matter what projector I use I can always hear some "wow" on the tracks especially in the music.
Most of those 20th Century Fox fanfares sound a bit "draggy" and very "tinny " as if they are slowing down.
No amount of film-lube can cure this. So I find the sound of 8mm stripe only just acceptable at all times.
Maybe I am over fussy and expect to much but hey these things cost a lot of money when compared with those " unmentionables".


David Hardy

RE: Sound Quality on 8mm.

#2 by Andrew Woodcock ( deleted ) , Tue Sep 08, 2015 12:22 pm

I have spoken already on this subject here David.
There is no doubt, depending on what stock, what master material used, and what state the recording equipment used at the time of production as well as the condition of our own projectors magnetic heads are in, that a prints sound quality can vary drastically.

As said already, the purple period as far as i can see of Derann feature films was from around 1983 to around the finish of laminated pre striped stock.
Anything after that and it really can be a lottery as to what you get.

The good news is that even on some of the worst pre recorded pasted stripe material, I have very often been able to bring this to a very high quality by recording it again on a Bauer T610 with good clean magnetic heads and from a high quality digital master with no noise attachment.

If you could only listen to my Derann Beauty & The Beast feature, you would be in no doubt David that this sound quality is truly amazing from the very small stripes on Super 8mm film.

Even my recent acquisition of Poltergeist sounds fine without having to record over the original track. As said, it really does depend on all the aforementioned factors.

Get them all right... it's great, even if one or two of the above factors are off... it can be dreadful.

Even old L&H and B&W films in general can be hissy and lack any real tonal qualities, but then that is of course, all down to the era these came from, well before Hi Fidelity recordings and Dolby Stereo were even dreamed of.

It's obvious that as our ears over the years have become extremely conditioned to listening to digital lossless soundtracks from just about any modern day source, that our attentions will be drawn to anything other than perfection, noticeably more than in previous era's.
But nevertheless, from these sources, it is extremely possible to create far superior sound tracks for our films than they ever had from original mastering.



Andrew Woodcock
Last edited Tue Sep 08, 2015 12:52 pm | Top

RE: Sound Quality on 8mm.

#3 by David Hardy ( deleted ) , Tue Sep 08, 2015 1:31 pm

I take your points Andrew but I have yet to hear an 8mm print that does not have some level of "wow" on the sound reproduction at some point.
Perhaps your copy of Beauty and the Beast ( or others ) is an exception to my findings to date that I have not yet heard.
I keep an open mind however.
However the problem for me is that I am also a regular live Classical Music and Opera goer and a bit of a Hi-Fi systems fan.
So I may be a victim of my own sound preferences and criteria.
I have even criticised the sound quality of modern Digital sound systems when I worked as a projectionist.
In my opinion all current Cinema Sound systems are totally inaccurate and way overblown when it come to real quality sound.
The sound is extremely artificial and inauthentic. A bit like the thrill of a Fairground ride. However "T'was ever thus !!! ".
Giant P.A. sound systems.



David Hardy
Last edited Tue Sep 08, 2015 1:39 pm | Top

RE: Sound Quality on 8mm.

#4 by Tom Photiou , Tue Sep 08, 2015 1:41 pm

wow and flutter are usually due to projector problem. Yes i have a one or two movies on 8mm that have had a little wow but these went back for refunds.
I do have to say that many films,(mainly musicals),do have a little wow on my Elmo 1200HD, (i often clean all the rollers etc which clears it for a while), but my recent purchase of a Bauer T610 the same films are perfect with no wow or flutter at all.



 
Tom Photiou
Posts: 2.634
Points: 4.788
Date registered 08.14.2015
ThankYou 153


RE: Sound Quality on 8mm.

#5 by Andrew Woodcock ( deleted ) , Tue Sep 08, 2015 1:41 pm

Wow is measured as less than or equal to 0.2% on a Beaulieu Capstan drive machine. I'd say that is pretty darned good for a vintage 80's projector!

Wow doesn't tend to be an issue on any DC driven machine with a decent sized Capstan Roller and no dancer arrangement.
As for our favourite ways of listening to sound or watching images, we all differ in our opinions, hence the reason we all prefer to watch real film those of us who are here.

One mans Pill is another mans Poison as they say!



Andrew Woodcock
Last edited Tue Sep 08, 2015 1:45 pm | Top

RE: Sound Quality on 8mm.

#6 by David Hardy ( deleted ) , Tue Sep 08, 2015 3:08 pm

Thanks guys. I guess ALL my projectors must have a problem then. I have found over the years that technical specifications and measurements mean very little to me in practice. O.2 % wow is very good indeed so I may have to change my 8mm projectors then to a Beaulieu then.
If that does not work I better get a new set of "wow free" lugholes. hahaha !!!


Mats Abelli likes this
David Hardy

RE: Sound Quality on 8mm.

#7 by Andrew Woodcock ( deleted ) , Tue Sep 08, 2015 4:02 pm

I think if you did switch David, you would find it would work perfectly for you and your audiences lugholes!
(even drenched in Filmguard if you so wished)



Andrew Woodcock
Last edited Tue Sep 08, 2015 4:05 pm | Top

RE: Sound Quality on 8mm.

#8 by David Hardy ( deleted ) , Tue Sep 08, 2015 4:50 pm

Hi again.
I think the real problem with most magnetic 8mm sound head mechs is that some are no better than those "cheap 'n nasty " Music cassette tape recorders we used to see for sale.
Andrew I would really like to hear your projector. I will PM you my address so you can send it on to me for a demo in my own home. Hahahahaaha!!! . Of course you will have to pay the postage both ways as I am a mean old Scotsman.


David Hardy

RE: Sound Quality on 8mm.

#9 by Andrew Woodcock ( deleted ) , Tue Sep 08, 2015 7:35 pm

David, the Woelke mag heads used by Bauer and Beaulieu are a quality mag head made in Munich up until the 90's.
They currently are offered for sale at 250euros each brand new.
I don't think they can be called cheap or nasty in any respect of the words.

The mechanisms themselves vary from appalling in some machines, and not necessarily the inexpensive projectors, to extremely good on the ones that got it right.
The 938 is a very good example of what I'm saying despite its inferior drive chain set up.



Andrew Woodcock
Last edited Tue Sep 08, 2015 7:39 pm | Top

RE: Sound Quality on 8mm.

#10 by Tom Photiou , Tue Sep 08, 2015 7:41 pm

Expensive and nasty??



 
Tom Photiou
Posts: 2.634
Points: 4.788
Date registered 08.14.2015
ThankYou 153


RE: Sound Quality on 8mm.

#11 by David Hardy ( deleted ) , Tue Sep 08, 2015 7:43 pm

Thanks for that information Andrew. I think I may be selling some of my projectors and buying a QUALITY Beaulieu or Bauer soon.
So bye bye Elmos.


David Hardy

RE: Sound Quality on 8mm.

#12 by Andrew Woodcock ( deleted ) , Tue Sep 08, 2015 8:00 pm

It's each to their own David, some people love the GS1200 and wouldn't swap for any other machine but for the things you are complaining of associated with Super 8mm projectors, I believe they would all be remedied by owning either a Fumeo, Beaulieu or Bauer machine and would ensure your collection stays scratch free as long as you buy one in very good condition to begin with.

As you already have a fumeo, I am surprised that you are experiencing high levels of Wow while using this machine.



Andrew Woodcock
Last edited Tue Sep 08, 2015 8:08 pm | Top

RE: Sound Quality on 8mm.

#13 by Tom Photiou , Tue Sep 08, 2015 10:02 pm

bye bye elmo's not so fast!

Whilst having to admit there are better machines than Elmo's they do have an awful lot going for them. They are sturdy,easy to access and always repairable as well as being good sturdy hard machines.
What models are they?
Just try giving all the rubbers and drives and good clean up first, if need be change all the belts and spend some quality time cleaning up all the belt grooves where they pick up dirt.
I have to say, (i have found out the hard way), filmguard can be quite a cause of this. If its over applied it will cause a lot of wow on Elmo's. I am currently going through a programme of cleaning off excess cleaner.
Once i clean a film on the rewind spools i reverse them through a good clean 100% cotton cloth, its amazing how much excess comes off. Good advice i got recently. You just have to ensure you dont put any pressure on reverse so as not to remove it altogether. This seems to have done the trick for me.
I cleaned up my ST1200HD, it took a good while, i then took some excess cleaner off and bingo, it dont wow no more



Vidar Olavesen likes this
 
Tom Photiou
Posts: 2.634
Points: 4.788
Date registered 08.14.2015
ThankYou 153


RE: Sound Quality on 8mm.

#14 by David Hardy ( deleted ) , Tue Sep 08, 2015 10:45 pm

Tom thanks for the Elmo tips but I already do those things. I have a GS 1200 and a GS 800 M. Quite frankly I find both of them a pain in
sprocket hole to use. I may send them of to Bill Parsons for a good doing then take it from there.


David Hardy

RE: Sound Quality on 8mm.

#15 by David Hardy ( deleted ) , Tue Sep 08, 2015 10:48 pm

I don't / wont use Filmguard at the moment as I am wary as to its long term effects on striped film.
I still use the lube/cleaner that DFS sold.


David Hardy

RE: Sound Quality on 8mm.

#16 by Andrew Woodcock ( deleted ) , Tue Sep 08, 2015 10:49 pm

Yikes!!! Don't put that stuff anywhere near pasted striped films David.

Filmguard is very safe on the stripe. Tom points out one of the few only drawbacks of using FG and even this only becomes a problem on some machines like my editor for example.

The beauty of the Elmo's I have always found, is they are very easily fixed for the most part and all have very decent useful service manuals supporting their models.
They will probably be around the longest as many of the others need lots of money and dedication throwing at them to keep them running perfectly.

Fumeo models seem to be THE most robust from what I read and hear.



Andrew Woodcock
Last edited Tue Sep 08, 2015 10:58 pm | Top

RE: Sound Quality on 8mm.

#17 by Hugh Thompson Scott ( deleted ) , Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:29 pm

I have not yet experienced wow or flutter on my showings, why would I? I have adequate loops top and bottom, good grip on capstan
and a good unfluctuating electric feed, even on Elmo and Eumig, no wow, could it be in Cities that the flow is affected to the consumer
due to amount of people using at a particular time? Or could it be to use of Filmguard? I can remember in the use of 2.22, the finest film
lubricant ever made, did say that it could affect recordings on stripe.and to apply a liquid to remove 2.22. Very honest on their part then, maybe Filmguard is the fault. I don't use Filmguard by the way.



Hugh Thompson Scott
Last edited Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:35 pm | Top

RE: Sound Quality on 8mm.

#18 by Andrew Woodcock ( deleted ) , Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:48 pm

Well it cannot be Filmguard to blame in David's case Hugh, as he never uses it.
I have yet to find out if his continual Wow woes are restricted only to his two Elmo GS models or whether or not unusually, in his case,it extends also to his Fumeo 9119.

I would be very surprised if it did.

Some models are shocking for wow but many barely suffer at all, even if the rubber capstan roller is truly glistening from over coated filmguard.

All will be revealed no doubt.

I don't believe it has any relationship to power supplied to any machine unless the motor is pulsing or stalling but even if this is the case, it really is highly unlikely to be linked to the actual power supply in any way. 50Hz is 50Hz wherever you are in the UK.
Clocks and many other apparatus including pc's etc rely on the accuracy of our mains frequency to make them work correctly such is its accuracy.



Andrew Woodcock
Last edited Thu Sep 10, 2015 12:01 am | Top

RE: Sound Quality on 8mm.

#19 by Hugh Thompson Scott ( deleted ) , Thu Sep 10, 2015 12:13 am

I still own a GS1200, I did love the machine, but found it lacking in sound, prone to wow, I ended up swapping the roller from the
ST1200 for the GS own, result, no wow. I have got to say, the GS1200, is vastly over rated, too complex for its own good and spoils film with scratches, I look beyond its box of tricks with sync, it is a bad machine, over designed and it breaks the first rule of film, it scratches, even after modifications, I do not trust it.



Hugh Thompson Scott
Last edited Thu Sep 10, 2015 12:14 am | Top

RE: Sound Quality on 8mm.

#20 by Andrew Woodcock ( deleted ) , Thu Sep 10, 2015 12:16 am

You only echo my own sentiments there Hugh especially with the later statement, but then there is no news there. I have been told time and time again that Elmo's don't scratch if you own them in America.


Andrew Woodcock

RE: Sound Quality on 8mm.

#21 by Vidar Olavesen , Thu Sep 10, 2015 12:17 am

Even if you exchange those parts that Osborne sells? I bought one hoping it would help. Have yet to see scratches on any of my prints


 
Vidar Olavesen
Posts: 4.766
Points: 11.280
Date registered 08.02.2015
ThankYou 255


RE: Sound Quality on 8mm.

#22 by Andrew Woodcock ( deleted ) , Thu Sep 10, 2015 12:21 am

People can and have solved the Achilles heel on these Vidar, but the whole path is just wrong!!!

An engineering nightmare, especially the dancer/ lower loop arrangement.

The high quality German engineered top feed shoe seems to solve much at the top end but cannot do anything to help the rest of the path.

Various guides wear at various times. The loops are never the same size consistently.
The lower loop starts forming virtually at right angles at the end of the steel film guide at the gate.
There are virtually no rollers in hardly any of the stationary plastic guides.When there are rollers fitted, they seldom actually turn a year after they were made.

What chance does any thin piece of plastic have travelling through that lot unscathed while being bent at unbelievable angles at every conceivable stage?

I think people like Tom have performed a minor miracle by keeping the vast majority of their prints good using these for 30years. I simply cannot imagine what level of cleaning is involved on the machines to do so. Some of my prints have been written off in a matter of weeks on some of these.

Just my own experiences of course and everyone's differ but it never ceases to surprise me how many bemoan the same as my own over the years.
I just wish it wasn't the case as I'd have loved a GS back in the day.
Only with a brand new one would I have took the chance.



Andrew Woodcock
Last edited Thu Sep 10, 2015 12:45 am | Top

RE: Sound Quality on 8mm.

#23 by Hugh Thompson Scott ( deleted ) , Thu Sep 10, 2015 1:16 am

Andrew, you are so right, the projector is a bad design, it was Elmo's Flagship, it is in reality a vessel of problems, I personally
hate it, it spoilt a lot of film, "Jap Crap" is how I term it, an over designed recording studio, that missed the point of film care,
I look at my early buys now and again, put through these machines, and think, why are they held in esteem, they are total crap,
scratches are the main viewing area, who in their right mind trusts these awful products. In America, if it's expensive, it must be
good, but obviously it isn't, and projectors like Fumeo never got there, so the "Jap Crap" rules, how sad, good projectors never got there.
I think Elmo struck Gold with the ST1200, after this was the fools stuff with the GS, a play toy of problems, take stock of projector problems, they are mainly Elmo, every body else's is okay.



Hugh Thompson Scott
Last edited Thu Sep 10, 2015 1:28 am | Top

RE: Sound Quality on 8mm.

#24 by Andrew Woodcock ( deleted ) , Thu Sep 10, 2015 6:38 am

The ST 1200 is a solid machine as you say Hugh.
It may well be Elmo "Gold" but it does still have that same path I was describing above.
That film path IMHO is its main draw back along with the drive mechanism.

The high point is again IMHO, the solid build and the HD amplifier with these.


Andrew Woodcock

   

Films for the public
Film Soundtracks.

disconnected Reel-Chat Members online 0
Xobor Create your own Forum with Xobor