Red and fading prints.

#1 by David Hardy ( deleted ) , Thu Aug 27, 2015 3:59 pm

Can some one please answer me this question without stating the obvious on that "...its on film...".
Why is that some members buy and keep holding on to faded to red/pink/brownish prints ???
Just wondering for a couple of reasons.


David Hardy

RE: Red and fading prints.

#2 by Vidar Olavesen , Thu Aug 27, 2015 4:08 pm

It's the reason you said not to use, and the magic is still there, allthough slightly less of it. I do not love my red prints, but rather see those than the unmentionable any day


 
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RE: Red and fading prints.

#3 by Vidar Olavesen , Thu Aug 27, 2015 4:08 pm

You got some for sale? If the price is right, I am there :-)


 
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RE: Red and fading prints.

#4 by Robert Crewdson ( deleted ) , Thu Aug 27, 2015 5:33 pm

I got one off Ebay when I was new to 16mm, it's a documentary about Anglo-Saxon England, when it came it was totally red; I did write to the seller that it was not like the screenshots; but he said it was the same film. I didn't know at that time that he had probably used filters to improve the colour. I have only watched it twice; I keep it because I don't think there would be any interest in it, and I wouldn't get anything like it cost me.



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RE: Red and fading prints.

#5 by Hugh Thompson Scott ( deleted ) , Thu Aug 27, 2015 8:45 pm

I probably sound like a lunatic, but it is good to have that elusive print, on film, regardless of language even, I recently purchased
the Italian prints of "Lady Frankenstein" & Andy Warhol's "Flesh For Frankenstein", both in Italian with fading colour, it can be rectified
by gels, but the fact remains, they are extremely rare and definitely a "find" for me as I love the European Gothic horrors. Likewise
with my print of "The Big Silence" on fading 16mm, I got the impression I was taking on Germany on my own in a bidding war on that one!
Granted I have films with great colour, but I promise myself to replace faded with good colour when they ever turn up, chances are they
hardly ever do, likewise with "Virgin of Nuremburg", faded colour 16mm, imported from the USA, plus import duty, but it is uncut, to me
well worth it., as with "The Mutations" & "Creatures the World Forgot", the latter just to complete Hammers Prehistoric trio, the first two dinosaur epics are IB Tech. It can be surprising how many people still pursue a faded or fading print, I am obviously not the only sad case.



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RE: Red and fading prints.

#6 by David Hardy ( deleted ) , Thu Aug 27, 2015 9:18 pm

Somethings not right here. There was I and others in the 1960s / 70s / 80s and 90s complaining about prints with below par colour and definition.
Writing off to the distributors and the magazines letters page in order for them to get their act together and produce prints of better quality and rejecting those prints that did not come up to a given standard. Demanding a refund or credit note or replacement.
Here are you guys today accepting them as a "collectable" norm. Somethings definitely not right here. Okay so the prints are not new and have faded over time that I accept. However to actually place some kind of value on them is a paradox to me.
Also the fact that the colours are no longer as the colour consultants and film directors and cinematographer intended has me still scratching my head in wonder and confusion. Hahahahahaha !!!


David Hardy

RE: Red and fading prints.

#7 by David Hardy ( deleted ) , Thu Aug 27, 2015 9:21 pm

That's one reason why I now only collect IB Tech or low fade stocks. I only collect monochrome prints on pure monochrome stock.


David Hardy

RE: Red and fading prints.

#8 by Hugh Thompson Scott ( deleted ) , Thu Aug 27, 2015 10:18 pm

Well, the guy that got the distributors in Britain to shake up their act was the late Paul van Someren, his little mag "Super 8 Collector
was a revelation. Print quality did improve in most cases, but the prints of films I wished to see, were in the main not available, I am
not a George Formby fan, have no interest in Hollywood musicals, likewise the majority of stuff that passed for entertainment, was not
for me. Remember, the ownership of 16mm prints by the public is quite a recent thing. The first time I ever saw a 16mm feature print for sale on any of the dealers lists, was "Go To Blazes" on a Perry's listing years ago, long before Derann ever sold them. Therefore to be
able to actually own a print of a much loved title, not available elsewhere, is a winner to me. As I mentioned before, a gel can make a world of difference, if I had to just buy "perfect" prints, then I would find the hobby would get a bit stale, especially in view of the fact that the majority of these prints are getting a bit long in the tooth now. As I mentioned in another thread, prints from Derann etc, that have great colour and in general, good sound, are commanding big prices, they were never cheap when new, but are now seen in a new light, because there won't be anymore, and all low fade.



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Last edited Thu Aug 27, 2015 10:20 pm | Top

RE: Red and fading prints.

#9 by Andrew Woodcock , Thu Aug 27, 2015 10:37 pm

Ive got plenty of prints that are certainly not A1 for colour even if not totally red.

All of the Marketing Prints are on the turn now and I have loads of them.

At the end of the day, I'm very much in the Vidar camp. If it means the only way I can watch some of my favourite 3x 400ft cutdowns such as Marathon Man on 8 is by screening these prints, then so be it, such is my desire to watch Super 8mm film.

I still get plenty of enjoyment from them all and what concerns me far more than a little colour fade or shifting is the condition of the films.

My pet hate is poor projectors that cause emulsion scratches.
When this happens to the type of features Hugh mentions above that were never cheap to begin with, on low fade stock so will last many many years to come in perfect condition potentially, then to me, allowing them to become badly scratched is tantamount to vandalism as we can never see these prints repeated for sale again.



 
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RE: Red and fading prints.

#10 by Hugh Thompson Scott ( deleted ) , Thu Aug 27, 2015 11:01 pm

Andrew, great minds think alike, I hate projectors that do this, a very serious defect, invariably a Japanese or cheap Italian job, pardon the pun. That is one of the reasons I like Fumeo, manual thread, no horrible plastic tracks, just metal rollers. I take the point though that David was making, some of us did raise cain with the distributors with their prints, Derann were noted for faults in the early days,
Mountain/Mailmaster had their fair share too. I realise that at the time, master material was not always easy to obtain, faulty sound was
another bone of contention. When buying a faded print, the choice is ours, we have a good idea of what we are letting ourselves in for,
back in the day, it was a case of that is what we are selling, take it or leave it. I spent a fortune on postage returning a lot of faulty film.
I really had my eyes opened to 8mm quality with the Italian firm Fotocinedizioni and Marketing, Piccolo and UFA prints, the German prints just blew everyone else out of the water, sharp clear prints with gorgeous colour, the original "Once Upon A Time In The West"
from Marketing, I still have the German 3x400, still excellent colour, it left the English sound prints dead. No, when I think of it, I do love
my faded 16mm, they are what I like to see on the screen, regardless of fade, there is never an issue with sound, apart from some of 'em being in a foreign lingo, got to be better than what TV offers up at times.



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RE: Red and fading prints.

#11 by Andrew Woodcock , Thu Aug 27, 2015 11:06 pm

The German prints like the UFA and Picalo prints are excellent Hugh I have to agree.
Very sharp and fabulous colour on even early 70's released stuff.

I'd like a few more of those in time.


 
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RE: Red and fading prints.

#12 by Timothy Duncan ( deleted ) , Thu Aug 27, 2015 11:07 pm

Well, I guess I'll put in my two cents (or pence to the U.K. fellows) here. I don't purposely set out to buy a faded or red print. Now I don't own even a fraction of what you guys have, but so far I've only gotten ahold of 3 really pinkish prints and discarded one of those because it had also been run to death. If I can see some color in the print at all, I'm usually fairly content. I wouldn't ever try to sell any of them as highly collectible/valuable items because I know they are not. They have value to me (partly at least) because of the rarity of film being projected at all on a worldwide scope. It seems common to us because we are so engrossed in the hobby. But I doubt anyone within 10 miles of me even owns a projector and films. I am very conscious of what I spend on the hobby too, as there are others in my household that need and want things. So I do have some prints that perhaps some of you would reject in a collection (I don't know for sure). But to enjoy the hobby in a responsible way, I do have to make sacrifices here and there, especially with print quality. I have found some films that are really entertaining for me in my comfort zone price wise. I just know I can't be overly picky about color and scratches if I'm to continue with film collecting (as well as stay married).


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RE: Red and fading prints.

#13 by Robert Crewdson ( deleted ) , Thu Aug 27, 2015 11:07 pm

Fortunately, all us collectors are different. I wouldn't knowingly buy a red print, or one on Eastman stock. Before buying my last feature from CHC, I got Phil to check what stock the film was printed on; when he said IB Tech, then I said I would have it. I can understand collectors like Hugh buying these films, if it's the only chance you have of owning a print. As Hugh said owning a 16mm print is quite a recent thing; many films will have been deliberately destroyed to stop them falling into private hands. With filters it's possible to bring some prints almost back to normal. Some people would think we are mad to spend maybe £100 on a film that has scratches, cinch marks, clipped dialogue, when a flawless version is available in another format for a fraction of the price.



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RE: Red and fading prints.

#14 by Andrew Woodcock , Thu Aug 27, 2015 11:19 pm

Timothy, nearly all of us have our limitations if we value our families above and beyond anything man made.

I have an extremely understanding wife nowadays and this hobby has caused its fair share of arguments in the past it has to be said.

No material objects are ever worth losing sight of the most important things in life which of course are people and their feelings.

Stay level headed in the hobby, pay only for the things you can truly afford, spend time with your films but longer with your family and you won't go far wrong buddy!



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RE: Red and fading prints.

#15 by Robert Crewdson ( deleted ) , Thu Aug 27, 2015 11:25 pm

Because I got into the hobby in the 70s I was able to buy all but one of my Super 8s brand new; when I took up 16mm I wanted the best condition prints; and when there were several I wanted, but couldn't afford to buy all at once, I bought those with the best grading; when I got around to enquiring about the other film I had wanted, it had been sold, and I haven't seen another one since; so now, I buy regardless . I have managed to get some cracking films by lowering my sights a little.



Robert Crewdson

RE: Red and fading prints.

#16 by Robert Crewdson ( deleted ) , Thu Aug 27, 2015 11:29 pm

That's very good advice Andrew; when it comes down to it, our family are more important than anything else.



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RE: Red and fading prints.

#17 by Timothy Duncan ( deleted ) , Thu Aug 27, 2015 11:32 pm

Andrew,
That is a VERY nice response...THANK YOU! I do try to spend time with my family (watching films...LOL!), but the interest is not there with them. I'm waiting for the next family function at our house so I can entertain them...or torment them...with my collection!

I hope none of you thought I was preaching, because I certainly didn't intend to.


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RE: Red and fading prints.

#18 by Andrew Woodcock , Thu Aug 27, 2015 11:38 pm

Not at all Timothy...and if it's any consolation, my wife never watches ANY of my films, only my modern silver disc varieties shown on my screen through one of those dull characterless boxes we bolt to our ceilings! Ha ha

Dare I say, they do give us nice images though ha ha.

My love of the spinning reel is a unique passion only of mine in our household sadly.



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RE: Red and fading prints.

#19 by Mats Abelli , Fri Aug 28, 2015 8:09 am

First about red/pink films. I don´t buy a film if I know it´s faded. I may make an exeption for a slightly faded print of a wanted Disney cartoon. I have a couple such prints in the collection, but always try to replace them. When buing collections ( pig in a poke buys ) I shurely get som red/faded prints, but I don´t enjoy watching them. I feel to sad when I watch a good film that have turned. I usually sell these prints cheap but always declare the actual color status in the ads. Some people who have a shiny disc collection, likes to have the reel thing for decoration.


 
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RE: Red and fading prints.

#20 by Mats Abelli , Fri Aug 28, 2015 8:17 am

About my family situation. I´m the only filmweirdo in the family. My wife and my two grown up daughters don´t find the reel thing, so much better, than watching TV. But they supported my plans building a home cinema. My wife just don´t understand why I bulit a 22 seater, when just the two of us live in our house. I just hope that some collecting friends visit me, to share magic moments.


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RE: Red and fading prints.

#21 by Vidar Olavesen , Fri Aug 28, 2015 8:44 am

Maybe you can host a Nordic? Use it on special occasions (Like Super 8 day that comes up soon on it's 50th anniversary). Better yet, move the whole thing to Norway (Sarpsborg preferably) and we'll visit with our club :-)


 
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RE: Red and fading prints.

#22 by Mats Abelli , Fri Aug 28, 2015 9:24 am

I believe Nordic, would be a little to much for me. My cinema is located on the second floor in our private home. But I´d like to arrange a meet for a maximum of appx 20 people sometime. I still have to organise and store my collections. ( Films and projectors ). As for now, there is no place for the audience.


 
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RE: Red and fading prints.

#23 by Mats Abelli , Fri Aug 28, 2015 9:27 am

About moving my cinema to Sarpsborg. I think it´s much easier to move on of your club meetings to beautyful Blekinge, Sweden.


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RE: Red and fading prints.

#24 by Robert Crewdson ( deleted ) , Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:50 pm

I watch these films on my own when the wife goes off to work nights in a care home, but she is changing her job in a week. When we got married I showed her some home movies of my parents, and when I got my 16mm projector back from repair I was eager to test it so got a newsreel and projected onto a door. The reason I haven't shown her anything so far is because everytime we watch one of those unmentionable shiny silver round things, that can be used as bird scarers or frisbees, she interrupts me every five minutes to make a cup of tea, or bring some biscuits, or something else. I tell her that if I was projecting a film you can't just switch off so you can make tea. So I watch on my own. I get annoyed when we watch something on TV and as the main title starts it's 'Can you make me another cup of tea'. A movie that should normally take 90 minutes to watch ends up lasting 2 and half hours.



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RE: Red and fading prints.

#25 by Hugh Thompson Scott ( deleted ) , Fri Aug 28, 2015 10:37 pm

The thing to do there Robert is put all the necessary stuff like booze, tea & nibbles on a side table, set up the projector and screen
beforehand, dim the lights, get your better half seated and comfy, then kick off the show, making sure that all avenues of escape are blocked or locked, its for their own good. On a more serious note, its good that members like Tim have their feet firmly planted on
the ground as regards this hobby, it can be expensive and one can get carried away. I myself have never had a proper holiday, therefore
can take pride in a nice collection of films, as I stand tanless through lack of sun!



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Last edited Fri Aug 28, 2015 10:43 pm | Top

   

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